Question about items Club vs Hatchet

  • So i just wanted to ask, whats the better item? Considering im a teuton, is it better to have a club of the clubswinger or a hatchet of the axeman? logicly i would say the club cus u normaly have alot of clubs as a teuton so the bonus will be better on the clubs since they are more than axeman. Can someone else, preferably, expirenced give me their opinion and knowledge about this. Thank you

  • I mean if in your off you have clubs, you should use the club of clubswinger obviously and if you have axes, you should use the axe weapon.
    The only doubt you could have is between weapon for TK and the other weapon.


    TK weapon is usually better if your off is based on axes (it gives you more off overall)
    Clubs weapon is better if your off is based on clubs


    Either way to discover which one fits your army the most you can just make the calculation of which one gives you the more off overall when you have it equipped.

    • If you have more clubs than axes and more clubs than 3x your TK chose club weapon
    • If you have more axes than clubs and more axes than 3x your TK chose axe weapon
    • If your TK amount is more than 1/3 of clubs/axes (the maximum of both) chose TK weapon

    In other words: Chose the weapon of the unit that consumes the most crop.


    Note: It's very ineffective to build offs that have mixed clubs/axes and definitely not recommendable.


    Examples:

    • 10,000 clubs, 8,000 axes, 3,000 TK: More clubs than axes (10,000 > 8,000) and more clubs than 3x TK (10,000 > 3 * 3,000)
    • 8,000 clubs, 10,000 axes, 3,000 TK: More axes than clubs (10,000 > 8,000) and more axes than 3x TK (10,000 > 3 * 3,000)
    • 10,000 clubs, 5,000 axes, 4,000 TK: TK amount (4,000) is more than 1/3 of the maximum of club/axe (1/3 * max(10,000; 4,000) = 3,333 and 4,000 > 3,333)

    Examples using the crop rule:

    • 10,000 clubs consume 10k crop, 8,000 axes consume 8k crop, 3,000 TK consume 9k crop --> clubs consume the most (10k) -> club weapon
    • 8,000 clubs consume 8k crop, 10,000 axes consume 10k crop, 3,000 TK consume 9k crop --> axes consume the most (10k) -> axe weapon
    • 10,000 clubs consume 10k crop, 5,000 axes consume 5k crop, 4,000 TK consume 12k crop --> TK consume the most (12k) -> TK weapon

    The crop rule applies for every other tribe aswell, but for romans you need to use the basic crop consumption, not the reduced one via horse drinking though.

  • Note: It's very ineffective to build offs that have mixed clubs/axes and definitely not recommendable.

    Ehm what? How would it be ineffective?
    Depending on situations having mix of clubs/axes is completely fine as long as you maximize your resources and off prod/s keeping into account the additional off you get from weapons

  • Building axes just gives you less attack power than clubs only. Their only advantage is their higher attack per crop. But most people are aiming for most attack power per time.

  • That's not the point of what he said, he said mixing the two of them is ineffective, which isn't true. Optimally you should only build clubs obviously, but unless you have a really good account it's not sustainable, nor more effective than mixing the two of them and focusing production of off/time on TKs with cavalry helmet. When I say a really good account I mean 15C cap with lvl 17 fields+ and top raider obviously, even then on normal server it's hard to be sustainable if you have more than one hammer.

  • Ehm what? How would it be ineffective? Depending on situations having mix of clubs/axes is completely fine as long as you maximize your resources and off prod/s keeping into account the additional off you get from weapons

    Because you can't use a club & axe weapon simultaneously. Club/axe mix in a single hammer is kind of the worst thing you can do to a hammer.

    That's not the point of what he said, he said mixing the two of them is ineffective, which isn't true. Optimally you should only build clubs obviously, but unless you have a really good account it's not sustainable, nor more effective than mixing the two of them and focusing production of off/time on TKs with cavalry helmet. When I say a really good account I mean 15C cap with lvl 17 fields+ and top raider obviously, even then on normal server it's hard to be sustainable if you have more than one hammer.

    Instead of trying to explain the theory behind it here some examples to prove my point:

    • Club/TK, 27% infantery helmet: 90,960 + 6,085 = 97,045 fighting strength
    • Club/TK, 27% calvalry helmet: 89,920 + 4,455 = 94,375 fighting strength
    • Club/Axe/TK, 27% infantery helmet: 88,560 + 3,240 = 91,800 fighting strength [building 12 hours clubs, then 12 hours axes]
    • Club/Axe/TK, 27% cavalry helmet: 88,100 + 4,440 = 92,540 fighting strength [building 12 hours clubs, then 12 hours axes]
    • Club/Axe/TK, 27% infantery helmet: 87,940 + 3,240 = 91,180 fighting strength [building clubs : axe in a ration of approximately 1 : 1]
    • Club/Axe/TK, 27% cavalry helmet: 87,640 + 4,440 = 92,080 fighting strength [building clubs : axe in a ration of approximately 1 : 1]
    • Axe/TK, 27% infantery helmet: 86,200 + 3,660 = 89,860 fiighting strength
    • Axe/TK, 27% cavalry helmet: 86,260 + 4,440 = 90,660 fighting strength

    All examples are calculated with 24 hours training time, level 20 barracks, level 20 stable, level 20 workshop, workshop producing rams. x + y = z fighting strength means x fighting streng without weapons, y best weapon bonus, z total fighting strength.
    As you can clearly see, the mixed hammers are roughly as weak as a axe hammer and all of them are around 5-6% below a usual club hammer with infantery boost. If I can't sustain a clear club hammer I propably play another tribe, but if I'm caught in a teuton account I would never start to build clear club hammers if I know that I can't sustain them. Building axes only gives the benefit of a much smaller crop consumption. The clubs in mix offs do give a little boost to the fighting strength, but it's very small - this very small advantage is payed with (compared to the fighting strength bonus) a huge amount of additional crop consumption.
    So: If you can't sustain a club hammer, build an axe hammer - but please do not build mixed hammers.


    (And yes, after having done the maths I see that the ineffectiveness isn't as huge as I assumed in the beginning, but it exists and it's for sure not negligible.)

  • Yes, this is all and beautiful theory, bu tin between the theory and the practice there is time, planning and the story of the server and of your account, I don't think telling this to a guy asking such a question is indicated.


    While the theory is clear, clubs are the best unit off/s considering the brewery, otherwise it would be EC (considering HDT 20), that was not my point. The point is that you can't sustain training clubs on B and GB on the long run if you don't have an extremely good account, hence telling him it's a bad compromise isn't a good advice imo.


    Holding cavalry helmet and going for a mix of clubs/axes, gives you a little less off/s, but allows you to sustain growth of your hammer without needing to have an extremely good account.


    Aka you produce a little less off/s but you have more off/crop, per day you will have less negative added and on the long run if you hold the production constant you will have as much off as someone who holds only clubs queued but can't sustain the crop that goes along with it.


    And in all of this we don't consider the farming losses, etc etc.. ultimately the theoretical gap between the off produced by the different combinations is non existent by normal players.
    If I know a guy can sustain a certain type of hammer growth based on his account and raiding I won't tell him to go for clubs to end having nightmare problems with crop and ending up having a mediocre hammer that could be stronger if he used other units.


    On speeds you can do clubs without having much problems, I agree, with limited gold we did 225k of them, on a normal server by being a gov, when you hit 300k troops you see that even the best account you can dream of it you will need to NPC everyday multiple times, farm and have losses, and have compromises with what you build.

  • My point is, mixing clubs/axes gives a similar amount of fighting strength per time but costs significantly more crop per hour than an axe hammer - which means if your goal is to save crop it's better to produce a clear axe hammer instead of a club/axe mix.

  • Mmh I don't agree, we are not trying to saving crop, we're trying to maximise how much off you produce on the long run keeping in mind the several factors, which includes crop obviously. The crop difference between building only clubs and club/axes or axes only focusing on building more TK is a lot bigger than the difference the latter two, so having a mix of axes, you would be more sustainable while producing more off, obviously one should aim to build as many clubs as possible but when crop is starting to become an issue, switching some of the production to axes release some pressure while you either find new ways of feeding the troops or you crash. Then again it depends on kind of account, etc.. etc.. Not considering it as an option is a lost opportunity in many cases.