Delete caps/limits on Outgoing Raids!!!!! #MakeRaidsGreatAgain

  • The reason why teutons are more limited by the 999 limit is simple. They produce less significant troop than the other tribes. Not saying they are not good. I'm saying they are less effective in some ways.
    For an offensive unit, clubs have the worst Attack point per wheat of the tribes, but their training time is the best, making them the best Attack point per minute of training.
    The limit has the effect of slowly chocking out the wheat income until starvation begins. (When you reach a point where 999 raids are providing less wheat than what you Hammer eat).
    Of course, every tribes can theorically reach that limit. Guals being second and roman third (because of horse water thing).


    Let's say you send parties of 2 infantry unit to raid. Anyway you don't get a full bag... why send more than 2?
    If we take only infantry as an example with a lvl 1 barrack:
    - You need 5333 hours to train 10k imps
    - You need 4000 hours to train 10k Swords
    - You need 2000 hours to train 10k clubs


    They all eat the same amount of wheat. Early on you can send those clubs much more often to get food early then the 2 other tribes. after only 2000 hours you already have 1 000 raiding party available (the 999 limit is reached here). you basicly capped there.
    Gauls cap at 4000 hours. and romans at 5333 hours.


    but at 4000 hours, teutons already have 20k clubs. but still only 1 000 raising parties out.
    at 5333 hours, teutons have 26,6k of clubs.


    Sure they are Killing it. But that Hammer is a pain to feed. This is why teutons are being chocked more in kingdom than in legends. In legend you can basicly send what ever you want... Never saw that limit and I finished first attacker of a server a few years ago. I sent raiding parties every 30 mins all server and at the end every 15 mins. 2 imps or 2 EIs to hundreds of farms (grays or inactives). But that's another story.


    Night

  • Without the limit surely Teutons have an overwhelming advantage?

  • Without the limit surely Teutons have an overwhelming advantage?

    I don't think so. Other tribes have faster units so it would be pretty balanced. Sure you can make clubs 3 times faster than EIs, but Eis run twice as fast and eat less crop. Horses also survive wall/residence further up without losses. I can see teutons being even better on earlygame since they wouldn't get capped first, but overall i think the game would be more balanced than what it currently is.

  • How many hours to train 10k EIs?


    I looked at the current week on my server and the top 10 robbers are evenly split: 5 Teutons, 5 Romans. If anything it sounds like the Gauls need a leg up.

  • How many hours to train 10k EIs?

    Around 290 hours with best helmet and great stable helping out.



    I looked at the current week on my server and the top 10 robbers are evenly split: 5 Teutons, 5 Romans. If anything it sounds like the Gauls need a leg up.

    Just because your server doesn't have gauls doesn't mean they are bad at raiding. @Rottermeier#IT was raiding 60 million per week on com2 with gauls, whereas romans/teutons could only reach 15-30 millions per week. TTs are overpowered raiding units, especially if the raiding competition is hard. Reaching 60 mill on a server where raiding was very tough was insane to me, i've never seen that happen before on a 1x speed.


    Imagine 2 people having same farmlists, one guy gaul and one guy teuton. Teuton can only send the list every 15 minutes because his troops are slower so he hits the 999 cap easier. Gaul instead is sending every 5 minutes to reach the 999 limit because TTs are lighting fast. If the competition on farming is tough and the farms are cleared constantly, gaul guy will earn ~3 times more resources.

  • I don't think so. Other tribes have faster units so it would be pretty balanced.

    Without a cap, troop speed doesnt matter. When your lists are running, every 5min (e.g.) an attack will hit a farm. Doesnt matter if the troops are fast or slow. Maybe with EIs or TTs you will need a smaller amount to keep your lists running every 5min 24/7 but clubs are cheaper and produced faster so it levels itself out.

  • Just had a quick look at top ten raiders on our current com5


    there are 5 Romans (top 4 are Roman)
    and there are 3 Gauls & 2 Teutons


    they have farmed an insane amount of resources between 4 million & 14 million res in just 4 days I'd say that's plenty and looks pretty balanced throughout the tribes & the restriction on outgoings isn't affecting things that badly


    I feel that compared to the handicap a Def player has that the restriction is fair and should stay.
    (Yes you can argue that a def player can raid too, but for their troops to be as effective as possible they need to be sat at home ready for action, not 3 hours away on a raid)

  • there are 5 Romans (top 4 are Roman)
    and there are 3 Gauls & 2 Teutons


    they have farmed an insane amount of resources between 4 million & 14 million res in just 4 days I'd say that's plenty and looks pretty balanced throughout the tribes & the restriction on outgoings isn't affecting things that badly

    I have no idea what day you guys are on, but on com2 before the end my troops were eating 5,5 million crop per day and on top of that gotta spend atleast +1 million res on queueing more troops daily. There was points at the game where i could not queue any new troops because the negative was choking me. I had more than 25k horses AFK in my village because i could not have any more troops out raiding to feed themselves. My troops were on the brink of starvation for ages, and this was with 999 capped on 2 villages and raiding a bit on a third one too.


    About the defenders raiding argument, making some TTs as a gaul defender will probably help you to make a lot more phalanx than you could otherwise make. Also adding a little bit of competition would only be healthy if there was no cap :)


    //Is there any chance we could get opinions from a gamedesigner regarding this thread? Is the cap just for saving server resources or is there actually something deeper behind it? @KEEN @Wizzball @FabianF Sorry about the ruthless tags, ya'll just don't seem too active on the forum :whistling:

  • Without the limit surely Teutons have an overwhelming advantage?

    Actually I don't think so. Each tribe have an adventage/disadventage. They each come with a counterpart. It's just that the adventage that teutons should have has been removed with the cap.


    I'm not taking raiding time (speed) into account because once you get Rolling out of a no limit account, if you send a raiding party every 30 mins, once the troops are starting to come back, you get ressources every 30 mins. It's only the time the first troops come back that changes.


    Teutons are a cheap offensive and fast to train, but have crappy defense and are slow. Their Hammer are easy to kill. That should be there weakness. Making their tribe the hardest to play as they need constant attention to get food and avoid ghosts hammers. This kind of offensive already comes with its price. Right now you have to pay a lot of gold to keep them fed,.


    Gauls are good at defense and fast, but have poor offense. They rock at building a cost effective ghost Hammer. You can relax all round as people won't bother you cause they are affraid of traps and later on you have the best defense. They are a tribe for players who want to take it easy. That's why that should make them "weaker". Don't forget that anvils can be trained in multiple villages, but Hammers can't. You don't need gold.


    Romans have the best offense per wheat and are best simmers (field and village can construct at the same time), but are extremly expensive. They are not as sensitive to ghost hammers as teutons because their wall provide great bonus. Their troops also have a nice "natural" resistance when defending. Their weakness is their cost to keep great barrack and great stable Rolling. No need for gold because gold can't buy ressources when you are out of everything anyway.


    The other question is why should a tribe cap at some point? Why liniting its potential? You want to be crazy active? Play teutons. You'll get rewarded. You want to create a crapload of defense and take it slower? fine. Play gaul you will be really useful too. That's fun. You want Something in between? Romans have serious potential for that and have a nice balance. But right now you can't play teutons without gold because they are over nerfed by this limit.


    But all in all travian is a strategy game until you reach the last few days of the server.


    Early on, send you Hammer to the wrong village and it's gone. Send your anvin to defend against the wrong fake... Treasury is gone.
    At the end, it's all about the Wonder. If you succesfully managed to stay low profile, avoid ghost attacks and feed your crazy amount of troops, some crazy WW hammers will emerge.


    oh and travian will still get money bacause people want silver and NPC is still good if you suck at balancing ressources.

  • I completely agree with everything LooWee said, and he's posting actual numbers to prove his arguments.
    Thanks.
    BTW i'm fairly sure GameDesigners will never pop out here, this subject doesn't interest them, they care too much about new useless features and aesthetic updates that no one really asked/wants instead and are transparent to all balancing requests from people that actually play this game competitively and spend a lot of time and money.


    I guess all WW hammer builders and offenders should just play defense from now on, and stop spending money.
    Maybe, if they won't able to pay their staff/servers and their beautiful offices anymore, they will find the decency to actually listen to us / give us a feedback.

  • Remove inactive (grey) villages ! Make this game require some skill again, not just pressing + and send buttons for raids ! Also remove farmlist, let them farm on hands like we had to do in good old times ! Oh i forgot, people are lazy now and don't know how to do anything if it's not done with one button !

  • I completely agree with everything LooWee said, and he's posting actual numbers to prove his arguments.

    Not really. His argument is still fine, but there are one or two holes. Just because Gauls can be defensive and build troops in multiple village isn't a huge advantage in crop requirements - it just means you don't need to shift crop around so much. But what you save on not building up Trade Offices you more than spend on building up troop buildings and the troops via Smithy in more villages. Clear advantage Teutons. And that's fine, because Teutons do take more work, but it's not an argument for removing the cap.


    As for his initial post all he showed was that Teutons could build much more quickly therefore the cap limits them more. Not arguing that, but again it's not proof that the cap should be removed; the alternative hypothesis is that it stops the Teuton army getting too big compared to the others.


    I'll use some numbers to show that arguably the cap isn't affecting the Teutons enough. Go to the hammer size thread - Teutons have by far the biggest hammers.

  • I have no idea what day you guys are on, but on com2 before the end my troops were eating 5,5 million crop per day and on top of that gotta spend atleast +1 million res on queueing more troops daily. There was points at the game where i could not queue any new troops because the negative was choking me. I had more than 25k horses AFK in my village because i could not have any more troops out raiding to feed themselves. My troops were on the brink of starvation for ages, and this was with 999 capped on 2 villages and raiding a bit on a third one too.
    About the defenders raiding argument, making some TTs as a gaul defender will probably help you to make a lot more phalanx than you could otherwise make. Also adding a little bit of competition would only be healthy if there was no cap :)


    //Is there any chance we could get opinions from a gamedesigner regarding this thread? Is the cap just for saving server resources or is there actually something deeper behind it? @KEEN @Wizzball @FabianF Sorry about the ruthless tags, ya'll just don't seem too active on the forum :whistling:

    So I read this and I believe bringing numbers into this makes your argument weaker .....


    Top 10.png


    We are at day 72 so players will have hammers less than half the size you had, they are showing that's it's possible to farm plenty of resources with the 999 restriction in place and with lesser troops (also lesser developed villages and production too) also worth mentioning that there are only 2 Kings in the top10 all the rest are Govs & as mentioned a good mix of all tribes...... that for me says the problems the heavy farmers are having are not due to the 999 Cap at all.
    So lets think about what the cause maybe, it could be the drop in farms due to players going inactive/deleting, having being overfarmed (removing the 999 Cap wouldn't help solve the problem.)
    Or it could be that more players have more troops and so the farm stats are more spread (i.e. the same amount of res being shared with more active players farming) removing the 999 Cap wouldn't solve that either,
    it could even be the quality of your own farmlists maybe you need to just take a closer look at your lists and not just farm everything on the map (just because you can) that then could cure you of having a problem with the 999 Cap anyway.


    I have seen great hammers from all 3 tribes and so it is possible for all to achieve, which tribe they chose to play is upto each individual and players that would be affected by the 999 Cap would be aware of the Pro's & Con's before starting the server anyway.


    Congrats @Jallu on your 230k hammer, I understand the problems in feeding/queuing that amount of troops having had similar a few times, difference being I am a pure def player and do not farm at all. (my little boast here is that we currently hold the record for the highest defs stats (normal speed) in the "hall of fame") so i feel able to be vocal about this
    The solution you gave to building some TTs wouldn't actually help a player like me (that is Off players advice) I would actually advice that a def player built Haeds rather than TTs as the last thing a deffer needs is thousands of pure Off troops eating the crop that could be replaced with a "ghost stopping" Haeduan army instead, they are great troops for dealing with hideouts too (they could still be used to farm with too, same as druids or paladins for Teuts etc, but that's brings me back to them not being at home if needed for a speedy def)
    as a def player, we are just the poor relations and very often seen as a weaker choice/player, for all those that have that mindset i would suggest you play a round of def and see how "easy" it is ;)


    But anyway Def was just one example I gave, you also need to consider Aggresive/Passive, Gold user/Non Gold user, Rich/Poor, really Active/notso Active, Dual acc/Solo acc, all these would be affected if the 999 Cap was removed. This game needs to be fair for all, not just the few, All those heavy farmers should perhaps make some changes themselves as the above s/shot shows it is easy possible to achieve great farming with a 999 Cap on all tribes without even having endgame hammer sizes in play. taking away the restriction could just make the divide even bigger & also could have the opposite effect created, by having even more players delete due to feeling iinadequate, only being able to see what happens on the top10 accounts rather than seeing average sized players stats


    A group of us had a little discussion about this yesterday and came to the same conclusion as @PoLo take away the 3 click farmlists and make farming a skill again and then maybe you could bring forward an arguement to have the restriction lifted. in the meantime all you farmers are effectively getting "free resources" make the most of it

  • These are very interesting arguments Jak. and I think that the thiefs hideouts and camps are there for less active players so the game remains interesting to them.


    As you said. try to play one round as a def and see how "easy" it is. Well... it is... I didn't have the biggest account and hell I've baught 13$ of gold for the whole round. I still managed a decent anvil. With lvl 20 phalanx from 4 villages and 3 other villages with lvl 12-14. Runing 24/7 (not all barrack were lvl 20). Had 50k phalanx before WW hammers started to swing around.


    Of course being trampled by the over acitve Jallu's of this world is a pain in an area where the sun will never shine, but there's an easy way to stop them. Cranny up, limit your WH size and spike them once in a while. They will soon forget you. Then you can start to live again. Or just join their team if you are close enough or your team won't help you. If you have good diplomatic or paying skills you can get out of trouble. You will ne an interesting player for the kingdom.


    I think people who go inactive/delete are mostly people who don't know how to react to those situation. This is not always true. Travian is a war game. people will get raided and destroyed and troops will be killed. Don't wine. When you play this game you know it's a possibility.


    You say: "Or it could be that more players have more troops and so the farm stats are more spread (i.e. the same amount of res being shared with more active players farming) removing the 999 Cap wouldn't solve that either,"
    Well I say that if I had more possible movement, I could go furthur out to get my ressources. So yes removing the cap would help you to go more "global".


    I think where we agree is this part : " it could even be the quality of your own farmlists maybe you need to just take a closer look at your lists and not just farm everything on the map (just because you can) that then could cure you of having a problem with the 999 Cap anyway."


    what you call 3 click farmlists is somehow good and bad. You want to make farming a skill again. I totally agree, but this will make the game boring for those who want to build significant hammers. Selectig them one by one would be a huge pain. So what will they do? They will target smaller player because inactive farms won't be as interesting. They will do just as we said before. trample small players non stops. If they know how to play, they will manage it. If it's like how i said earlier, they will delete or go inactive. Maybe limiting the usage of farmlist could be an idea. have a maximum amount on it or limit how often you can use it or make the troops raiding through the farmlist weaker (increase speed, but reduce carry capacity or there offensive power).Something opposite to sieges. Next time they lose troops on a raid or smaller player, they will think twice. I don't know. There as pros and cons to everything...





  • @LooWee#EN maybe i should've added playing def properly (as a top Off would be played) as you seem to have played your def account rather average :D


    I do agree this is a War Game and more emphasis needs to be spent on that (i.e. attacking & defending) not just farming..... back in the good old days farmers had to rinse and repeat every report meaning really earned your spot in the top10 for farming.
    Sending troops "Global" may not bring you more res, "the same amount of res" would still be the same amount of res in a village, you would just get less from each raid as all the other farming players would also be sending more troops all across the map too (thus making farming even less effective)there is no sense in being a mad busy fool


    Being trampled on is never pleasant and another idea we had to try and counter this, would to be to introduce "training servers" to get the newbies primed teach them such things as you described like how not to be a farm or how to beat a much bigger opponent ....
    before them having to suffer the perils of the over aggressive players this game attracts

  • No the point was that anyone can play relax and have a decent game without raiding or being raided or buy gold like crazy. If every anvil in our team played average like I did, we would have even more def. Making the crazy raiding teutons still manageable. So if i turn this around it just mean that people don't know how to play and how to manage being raided. If people knew how to play, then the cap wouldn't be a problem either.


    I still like the idea of making troop more "fragile" if they raid trough farm list. this could be an interesting solution.

  • Let's face it, if 999 farms is limiting you then it makes you weed through the farm list and do a bit of work. If no limit just add every inactive on the map - very easy to do (just send out a wave and see which don't have a cross swords). So easy that a bot could do it.


    And send out 20 waves an hour. This would end up being hugely frustrating for anyone that doesn't farm that way - I've already seen big arguments about such farming early game.


    Another thing - you cannot compare with TL; in TL inactives become Natars and have both troops and more res - farming is way more productive , but 1/2 troop raids less so. Clearly the farming changes were a design decision and the 999 limit goes with that. Maybe the no limit in TL also explains the more people banned for bots.

  • We are at day 72 so players will have hammers less than half the size you had, they are showing that's it's possible to farm plenty of resources with the 999 restriction in place and with lesser troops (also lesser developed villages and production too)

    I don't think you realised that those numbers are the exact reason the cap is a problem. Once the server ages the extra troops you have in your villages become practically useless because you can't keep them out raiding. Adding 50 horses to each farm is the same as having 10 horses each farm if they are dried out constantly. So to avoid extra losses on spiking i always had around half of my horses afk in my villages.


    We were having the same tier raidscores at your day, the raiding will only get worse once the inactives start deleting and you're left with 100 gray players that 100 actives are all racing to farm. (depends of course on how tough the competition is and how many people there are on the server) I think you missed the point completely, the exact reason why i want the cap removed is to actually unleash the full potential of all my troops, and i don't think someone with 15k horses should raid the same as 50k horses. And yes, i know, you could go for the big loots and risk taking extra losses to your hammer etc etc, but still the cap seems like a stupid mechanic to me. More troops should actually help you instead of being a burden until the last day :D


    Oh, and believe me, my raidlists are well optimized :) I also would not mind having the farmlist removed, this would be another way of helping more active players gain an edge on others.


    //Clearly we all have different opinions about the matter, and that's fine. If people like how it currently is, fine. The whole reason @Rottermeier#IT made this thread was to get an insight from the devs, but it looks like they are too busy to actually answer us. (or they don't know the reason of the limit either, maybe the game on early stages was poorly optimized and they had to limit the actions people can take on their accounts?)