Kingdom member limitation

Snorri · Jan 5th 2019

Quote from Puniclegend

Knight + the Order + Titans and Stars+EMC, all have the same players and u guys are upset about limiting team members?!! i don't know the rest of teams but this is some BS . i think at this point we should have a 25 player limit per kingdom to have REAL TEAMS. not just replicas of same players in every kingdom. and u call that teams brsshhhhhh. get real guys...

Why you saying that when there are rumours that your and Scorox's team will join the biggest META - Stars to make it even bigger lol? That's what I call BS

Snorri · Jan 5th 2019

And yet it was your king - Scorox who first came with rumour about Titans + Knights + GGG merging as an example.

And actually my rumour is not even a rumour. Maybe your decision is not final yet, but it was you who said (not to me) that you will play with a good team and experienced players - Deacon, StarX, Hah49, Scorox.. So please stop being a hypocrite

Snorri · Jan 5th 2019

This has nothing to do with Scorox anyway, Im just telling you that you are a hypocrite criticising the group I'm part of while your group is exactly the same - unless you change your mind and join someone else/stay on your own. And I share Scorox's opinion about atleast testing the kingdom members limitation btw

Snorri · Jan 5th 2019

Maybe it's because these kingdoms are falling apart? I already explained our reasons to Scorox via DM, so feel free to ask him, I will not post it here when it comes to Stars+EMC, I can't speak on their behalf, but last server I could see EMC struggling hard, so it would make sense that they would kind of disbanded and now joining Starx's group (as Deacon dualed with Starx there)

Scorox · Jan 5th 2019

Quote from Snorri

Why you saying that when there are rumours that your and Scorox's team will join the biggest META - Stars to make it even bigger lol? That's what I call BS

That are false rumors. Codex, which is the a small team of friends I belong to, was offered to join several teams for the upcoming servers. If someone have said that we have accepted any of these offers they are lying.

Honestly, I just want more and smaller organisations to be viable and be able to thrive. This was the motivation to enter debate on this thread.

Deacon · Jan 5th 2019

I hope you do understand that this debates are way too far from this "Kingdom member limitation" idea.

---------------------

Test server with:
Kingdom limit: 30 players(3 royals, 27 members at current version); Union limit: with 60 players (6 royals, 54 members at current version)

Quote from Scorox

I have now read all post here and the main objections to having a player limit per kingdom seem to be:

1) People will create wings anyway to extend their member count.

2) A hard limit of players per kingdoms will "push out" players of lesser skills

I personally think that this is the conclusion one will come to if you just judge it for the first evolution to a system with a hard max limit (everything else being equal). But certainly there can be further changes coming along to compliment such a radical change to the game. I think a one needs to consider a max player limit as a philosophy to be further designed around rather than a change to be inserted into the current rule set without further changes.

My motivation for why the game needs to be designed around such a core philosophy of a max number of members per kingdom goes something like this.

a) Wings (or allied kingdoms) will exist regardless of a max limit or not. Without a max limit Wings exist to maximize boarders, member´count and treasury generation. With a max limit wings will exist for the same reason. The difference is only that wings under the current system are often working under a temporary basis with a promise of absorption into the main kingdom in order to share the win. With a max limit the option of wings to work under a temporary basis for the purpose of later moving to the main kingdom and sharing the win will get removed. And I personally do value this seemingly minor change to have a great impact on the game as such an arrangement will in general be more difficult achieve diplomatically. Trying to be more clear; It will be harder to have 120 members selflessly working for the win of another 60 members in the main kingdom without any chances of sharing the victory, as compared to having 120 members temporarily being in wings with the promise of later joining up into a 180 man kingdom to share the win. I sincerely think a max limit will lead to more kingdoms will strive to act independently and working to optimize their own game and chances when the option of absorption is removed. This will not happen over night and it will demand further rule changes to stimulate such a change in dynamic. But I think the key is that the game introduces more and more rules that pushes players towards independent team building.

b) At this stage the game is pretty much solved. And I think many of the core/leadership groups of established organisations may agree with me that the META strategy of the current state of the game hold much more to be desired. The solved META strategy evolves around maximizing member count as to reach a sufficient passive treasury generation speed and to reach that critical level of DEF in a WW where a trail of 15 incoming sieges cannot damage your WW. The problem here arises from that a achievable OFF army size is bounded, while the DEF in the WW is a function of your member count. So one can practically reach "Checkmate state" due to the OFF army size being bounded by game "laws of physics" and WW DEF size being bounded by member count. A similar case also exist with the treasury generation. Treasury generation is a linear function of your member count. However, since VP is an accumulative additive function of your treasury count, VP becomes an exponential function of your member count! THIS is why the member coutn discussion is different and FAR more important in Travian Kingdoms than in Legends. And this is why there need to be a philosophy change (accompanied with several rule changed) when it comes to member count in Travian Kingdoms. As the META strategy stands right now, and everyone in the leadership groups knows it, member count is key for the 2 aforementioned reasons. And many leadership groups are constantly battling the contradiction of wanting to have a smaller tighter team with stronger community, against the by design necessity of having a huge member count to adjust to the non-linear impact member count will have on VP generation and DEF vs. OFF strength in the WW stage of the game.

c) By a max limit winning a server and receiving the Victory Medal for a server will be something far more rare. When only 60 players out of say 2000 can stand victorious on a server it will mean a great deal more than if 300 players our of 2000 wins a server... whether or not you have been organizing "pre-made" wings or if you have simply been skillful to been able to gain necessary allies via diplomatic means.

d) Finally, regarding objection 2 above. Yes it is true that players of lesser experience and connections will not have a very good chance of stumbling into a membership of the winning kingdom on a server. And I think this is a good thing. There will be other kingdoms to join, whom due to the necessity for alliances will not automatically all be destroyed to pieces. In reality all that will change for such players are that they will end up in kingdoms with lower chances of winning until they display the skill sought for by the more ambitious teams, and then subsequently being recruited by one of them. I would strongly argue that the experience for the players of lesser seriousness level or experience will not worsen. In fact, I think it will even increase as the community in ALL kingdoms will benefit from a stronger in-kingdom community as each individual in that kingdom now counts for more.

Best,

Scorox

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Scorox · Jan 8th 2019

To step the discussion forward a bit, let's move on and accept that a few of us have different expectations regarding the effects a limited Kingdom size would have. Some are firm believers that it would exclude players, and be unfriendly to new player. Some (including myself) thinks that it rather would have an even more welcoming and inclusive effect as compared to the current system. To move on from this discussion I would propose to us that are proponents of a Limited Kingdom size to engage in ideas and suggestions for features that would facilitate and support a Travian Kingdom with the limited member size as a philosophy. Let us have our focus on features that are improving community and support for new players.

Official Kingdom Organisations Support

It is already the case that the larger and more established organisations are organizing themselves in between servers using Discord and other means of communication and to have a home for their members. However, with an official support for Organisations via the Kingdoms.com website there could be several interesting community enhancing features, such as:

- Kingdom Information Page describing the Kingdoms Culture and Status in terms of recruitment.

- Display of Kingdom Achievements

- List of Kingdom Members (one may only be a Member of one Organisation at the time)

- Statistics over Kingdoms Past Results

- A Kingdom lobby chat for members.

Such an Official Kingdom page could greatly increase the community feeling among its member. It could also act as a way for new players to browse around to find a group they could feel at home in, both by the Info Page but also by its Current Members. This is all very similar to a typical "Guild page" of other MMOs.

To enhance the feeling of kingdom community even stronger it would be interesting if there were some Customization options on the Official Kingdom Page. Like for example the option to make your own costum Kingdom Flag. Maybe even one would be able to select this Kingdom Flag to be displayed in game rather than your real life nationality as is the case now. Some examples I made for demonstrator purpose:

Flag1.png Flag3.png Flag2.png Flag4.png

With this additions to a philosophy of a Kingdom Member Limit (of say 50 members), I feel that the overall effect would highly improve community, and also help new players much better than now. Some ways I see things improving would be:

A) It will encourage team building and bonding players tighter together. Every kingdom will need to make the best use of the members they have. Train, motivate and encourage.

B) More and a larger variation of organisation cultures will appear. With that comes an increasing chance of that every player will have a good chance of finding a team he or she feels at home at in.

C) More players will be engaged in and develop expertise in leadership tasks.

D) A more vibrant diplomatic and political landscape on each server.

E) Winning a server will be something rather rare and truly astounding, since only 50 members can win. Also a loss will be something less dramatic as compared to now.. were approximately half the server wins, and half looses.

Deacon · Jan 8th 2019

BridgetB Georgi galadriel

Maybe we could get some kind of answer from "TravianTeam" about this kingdom member limitation modification we're asking to try out @Test.

Georgi · Jan 8th 2019

Hi guys

I have already forwarded this thread to the game center and will let you know as soon as I have any updates. Please note however that even if the designers are interested in trying this out, it will take some time to evaluate and implement so it will most likely not happen on the next test server.

Kind regards
Georgi

StarX · Jan 8th 2019

Quote from Georgi

Please note however that even if the designers are interested in trying this out,

Georgi Is it solely Designer's decision to try it or not ?
I thought it was more gonna be like business wide decision since something like this potentially can risk loosing players or slow down getting new players . Am I wrong in saying that ?

Also why do we need to Test everything rather than experimenting 1 com world with this and evaluating the findings , something like Dry World we had before. Like what's the worst that could happen by launching 1 Game world with this feature ?

Jallu · Jan 8th 2019

Quote from Starx#EN(1)

Like what's the worst that could happen by launching 1 Game world with this feature ?

People chargebacking thousands of dollars worth of gold because of gamebreaking bugs that might appear if it's not tested properly first?

Neoflex · Jan 8th 2019

Big changes like this need to be tested several times. Why else have the test world?

StarX · Jan 9th 2019

Firstly, I don't really see it as radical change as Mehnir or Dry Worlds or others. Secondly, with almost 20 years of experience in game designing I am pretty confident that Travian team are capable of implementing that limit , bug free , if they want to.

Call me ignorant but I cannot envision any bugs on implementing 60 members limits on kingdoms. They already have cues from Legend too about it.

Also, test worlds are there and justifiable for more new ideas of such as Mehnir and others in all fairness but I believe this is something it can get away with.

LovëGood · Jan 9th 2019

Noone can't limit kingdoms' member.It is about players' mental.Firstly,players' mentals must change.We can see Meta X kingdoms like :

X-1 (60 members)

X-2 (60 members)

X-3 (60 members)

X-4 (60 members)

X-5 (60 members)

... (Total +300 members)

StarX · Jan 9th 2019

LovëGood I agree mentality must change, but some of us are already supporting the idea.

Plus, what you said about wing kingdoms is not gonna work for too long, since there is only 1 spot for the winner on the top, and the wing kingdoms cannot keep supporting forever without any prestige or achievement. As I stated before if they do it , they are either super loyalists or super dumb, and hard to find either of those 2 fractions in numbers of 60s.

Scorox · Jan 9th 2019

Quote from LVGD

Noone can't limit kingdoms' member.It is about players' mental.Firstly,players' mentals must change.We can see Meta X kingdoms like :

X-1 (60 members)

X-2 (60 members)

X-3 (60 members)

X-4 (60 members)

X-5 (60 members)

... (Total +300 members)

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Welcome to the Thread LovëGood .

This part regarding wings have been discussed a lot in this Thread. The reason why a Kingdom Member Limitation would have potential to improve the situation we see today (kingdoms of 5 wings - 300 players) is the following:

- Only one Kingdom can win the server. So if such kingdom of 5 wings with 60 members in each should be possible, then 4 wings need to act as helper kingdoms to the 5th. And only the 5th will get the win. In the current system the wings can be set up with the promise of all members of the wings later be invited to the winning main kingdom. That promise would no longer be possible with a Kingdom Member Limit. Hence, wings will need play a full server purely as helpers for the 60 members of the main kingdom to win. Sure, this may happen the first few servers while old groups are still intact in the massive states they are now. But over time I certainly believe that some players will not accept just playing as helpers for the core group of the 60 players in the Main Kingdom. As we all know, differences in temperament and opinions are a factor that drives players into wishing there was something that more represented their own ways, and eventually the 4x60 players of the helper kingdoms will find a place where they feel more at home and can approach the server more freely and independently, without being bounded to help the old core of 60 players win server after server.

... who knows if this will work or not. But I'm a strong believer in peoples wish to create something in their own image or to find a home of players with similar mindsets. With the right support from the Travian Dev team with more and more features facilitating Kingdoms of limited Size (such as the Between-Server-Kingdoms idea), I see this game coming to a rebirth.

Deacon · Jan 9th 2019

Quote from Starx#EN(1)

Firstly, I don't really see it as radical change as Mehnir or Dry Worlds or others. Secondly, with almost 20 years of experience in game designing I am pretty confident that Travian team are capable of implementing that limit , bug free , if they want to.

Call me ignorant but I cannot envision any bugs on implementing 60 members limits on kingdoms. They already have cues from Legend too about it.

Also, test worlds are there and justifiable for more new ideas of such as Mehnir and others in all fairness but I believe this is something it can get away with.

Bug free is easy for limitation @kingdom members.

Only few new variables are needed to add for this limit to work without any bugs...

StarX · Jan 10th 2019

@everyone Please cast your votes for the above topic here : VOTE FOR KINGDOM MEMBER LIMITATION

It'll be great to see how many players are in favor of this idea and how many oppose it.

P.S. Keep using this thread for discussions and use the above link for solely voting. Cheers

Johnny✨ · Jan 10th 2019

Here is an example of what unbalanced member count looks like:

The 1st kingdom had nearly twice the pop of second.

pasted-from-clipboard.png

Neoflex · Jan 10th 2019

This is probably from a local server? How many members were there in total?

Kingdom member limitation

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