[discussion] 15cropper – your feedback is needed

    I am a bit unsure of the concept. I mean I love the idea of "bots/NPCs, Robber camps, Robber Hidouts" to have a more important part of the game, but I rather see that only Natar villages can be 75% + when it comes for 15c. Preferably if you want to go forth with these NPC villages, I would also create a new form of "quests" with "bounty/wanted" targets. So for example you add NPC kingdoms (1 NPC king, NPC duke and 4-5 NPC goveners) that you as a kingdom can destroy. The kingdom that destroy all the players of this kingdom get a "bounty bonus" of for example 3k treasures. That would make it more beneficial to build off troops early and while large servers have wars, smaller servers would be more fun as it would be more PVE and PVP lategame.

    Another idea would be similar to old Travian where you have Grey zoones where you were attacked by NPCs. For example around each WW (5-8 tiles around) could be grey zoned where there would be these NPC villages. Settling within this grey zoon woule mean that the NPC villages would attack you once every 24 hours until all the NPC villages in this area was destroyed. This would make it more difficult for large premades to instantly claim the mid WW on smaller servers.

    Its good to have some more effort and competition to get a 15C. But 9C need not have that competition


    On rewards front, i think build slots come handy once you capture a Natar city. I never used to get extra building slots in my daily card game

    I would just again like to make a final push for the "Farmer" or "Terra-former" idea. Reading though the old suggestion thread for this idea I'll outline the key point of this idea below:


    Mechanics

    - All tiles on the map starts as 4446, 3447, 4347, 4437.

    - Natar villages still exists as they do today.

    - Oases exist and works as they do today.

    - A new Building called "Farmer" is added to the game. It can only be built in your capital.

    - The farmer is able to transform Clay pits and Forests to Farm lands.

    - The number of Clay pits and Forests it can transform depends on the building's level.

    - [Example] For each level bet level 1 and 10 the farmer can transform 1 Clay pit or Forest a Farm land.

    - [Optional] For each level bet level 11 and 20 the farmer gives a bonus to crop production (Like the Mill or Bakery).

    - The farmer in a very expensive building, but it allows anyone whom can afford it to obtain a "cropper" over time.


    Re-using some of the games old art, and adding some stuff myself, I made an example of how this building could look.

    farmer2.png



    This is the idea I absolutely feel would be the best for the game. No more internal drama about who in your group will get the 15Cs, no more race to the 15Cs, and not more "theifs" of the 15C's by multi account cheaters. It's simple and plain, are you active enough to afford it, you'll get one eventually.


    If you wish you can vote on this idea here: [Farmer Building] - Vote for 15C game mechanic

    As a fairly new player, the idea of chiefing for a 9c at early game scares me. It takes a lot of time and effort to build up to chiefs. By the time we can afford the chiefs, big premade kingdoms would already be monopolizing the npc villas all around us.


    On the side note, if the problem is with the non-actives occupying the 9c/15c by making it their capital, why not make those inactive villages chiefable and the active ones still un-chiefable instead? This will give equal opportunity for big and small players alike.


    This is just my humble opinion, take it with a grain of salt if you will.

    Not really helpful for newbies and smaller players. The advantage for fast players and professional farmers are too big. The servers are already small with only a few players at the end. If 15c will be "limited edition", difficult to convince fun players to participate. - And as mentioned above, hammers will be smaller, WW def bigger. Unnecessary extention of the game.

    i like the idea of changing the current fastsettling for 15c strategy but i personally dont think that turning all 15c into NPC villages is the right way to deal with it.

    for the sake of this argument ill assume that these mentioned NPC villages will be similar to the current natar ones... as it is now rushing for natars is already a pretty viable tactic for the fact that you get a huge powerspike from the fully built up fields after you are done with chiefing... on top of this the creation of your second chief is way cheaper and faster because you dont have to build a second academy 20 and research chief a second time... so even now what you will often see is that players who went for an early natar will also go for a second one or will try to put a second chief into good use in an other way

    Because of the above presented arguments the changes that you have proposed will lead to few experienced players, who are also willing to invest the necessary time and gold in the first weeks, occupying multiple 15croppers while players, who are maybe new to the game or maybe just had a bad start, will hardly be able to find a cropper.
    a second factor is also that teutons are way better for early chiefing then the other tribes because of their cheaper chiefs and also because of their access to clubs... this would probably mean that a teuton could be able to be done with the chiefing of 2 NPC-villages while romans got one... this would make non-teutons nearly unable to occupy a good 15c (with 100%+ on oases) or force them into multiaccounting

    Quote from Qvintus

    I am a bit unsure of the concept. I mean I love the idea of "bots/NPCs, Robber camps, Robber Hidouts" to have a more important part of the game, but I rather see that only Natar villages can be 75% + when it comes for 15c. Preferably if you want to go forth with these NPC villages, I would also create a new form of "quests" with "bounty/wanted" targets. So for example you add NPC kingdoms (1 NPC king, NPC duke and 4-5 NPC goveners) that you as a kingdom can destroy. The kingdom that destroy all the players of this kingdom get a "bounty bonus" of for example 3k treasures. That would make it more beneficial to build off troops early and while large servers have wars, smaller servers would be more fun as it would be more PVE and PVP lategame.

    Another idea would be similar to old Travian where you have Grey zoones where you were attacked by NPCs. For example around each WW (5-8 tiles around) could be grey zoned where there would be these NPC villages. Settling within this grey zoon woule mean that the NPC villages would attack you once every 24 hours until all the NPC villages in this area was destroyed. This would make it more difficult for large premades to instantly claim the mid WW on smaller servers.

    Yes, agree.....I think Robbers and Natars should have a more grander role in each server with them being more aggressive, and being able to grow and build and to an extent....form or have Kingdoms!


    Also agree with grey zones around WW's with a higher concentration of Natars around each WW.....and their ability to assault anyone who moves into the area......would make the game much more interesting and involved....taking quite a bit of strategy to set up in the WW areas

    Please NO! I dont like that idea....


    Quote from Sheila

    We want to make it more challenging for players to get those 15c. To achieve this goal, we thought about a solution and want to present it to you. Please, read the concept, ask questions and give us constructive feedback on it.


    I think your primary intension with that new idea is that players, who are new to the game, also have the chance to get a cropper, right?

    But these new or semi-active players will not benefit from the changes, the race about croppers will still be there only in a different way and later in the game.


    Easiest way would be to increase 15c and 9c fields on map.

    I also like the idea of terra-forming the fields in your capital --> in creating terra-from cards ( similar like additional building slot card) you could make a lot of money, lol....



    PS:

    I think new players shouldn't settle a 15c at all. You need some gaming skills to benefit from such a cropper. If you dont know how to use it, it will probably slow down your growth.....

    Thank you for participating in the discussion. I am answering more of the questions that have raised.


    Upfront, I would like to emphasize, that this is just a concept, so the technical development of the feature didn’t even start yet. We started this discussion on purpose now to get a general opinion of the community and see if it’s worth to continue developing this concept or not ( Curtain). Also, your input helps to look at the concept from different angles to get rid of crucial exploits beforehand. That means that it will take quite a while until it’s playable on TEST.



    Quote from Marshmallowman

    How does the 60% on phase 2 actually work? If (what should be intended) the player clears the village in one swoop, will this phase be sort of skipped? Will they fight back if one sends a single unit attack baiting the attack to farm some easy xp+rewards?

    60% of the NPC troops are viewed as stationed defense troops of this village. Marshmallowman, as you assumed correctly: if a player makes a bulk attack and clears 40% of the troops, the case 2 is skipped and there is no fighting back. This is a valuable strategy inmho. What do you think?

    And, yes you could send just 1 unit as a bait to the NPC settlement ( Curtain). That’s a great option to get on the list of the NPC’s enemies. However, the NPC troops aren’t attacking all the time and everyone right away.



    Quote from Marshmallowman

    Is it intended to weaken off overall. Is it intended to not weaken teuton off as much as the other tribes?

    Is it intended to make it near impossible for non-extremist veteran players to get croppers?

    As you’ve pointed out the general off would be weakened as the 15c are blocked at the beginning and the building of big hammers would start later and they’d be smaller. Yes, it is intended to not weaken the Teuton off much as they are currently on the weaker side. Clubs are fast trained but fragile fellows.

    It’ll be more effort to get the croppers. In a good cooperation with kingdom members even a non-extremist veteran could get the field, if they coordinate the attack together. A strategy could be that some players are taking care of the troops while another prepares for the siege of the settlement. Or as a team, you could also decide to destroy the NPC settlement and then settle there with an own village.



    Quote from Scorox

    Was the idea that was up on the forum a while back about letting players themselves "upgrade/modify" their capital to more crop fields and less resource fields up for discussion at any point among the dev team?

    Yes, the idea of terraforming the resource fields has been brought up and discussed thoroughly. This would be a huge game changer. After evaluating the pros and cons, our conclusion is that we will keep the resource fields as they are. The 15c or even 9c should keep their importance and be rare on the map to keep them as valuable targets. Also, it could be noob trap and players might specialize in producing one resource not thinking about consequences such a decision has on the whole round.



    Quote from Curtain

    Questions:

    What tribe would the NPCs be? New one or like a mix of the existing 3

    Do they build units or start with a bunch of them or mix of both?

    How strong would the city be in terms of unit count? (stronger than natars? weaker? about the same?)

    The NPC tribe would be a new one. They would have built units at the beginning. The NPC village would be about the same as the current natar villages and the NPC cities would be stronger. What would you like them to be called? Or would you prefer them to be robbers, too?



    Quote from Curtain

    Questions:

    - Are the rules on city per city basis or do they apply to all of the NPCs. What I mean by this is that does the 75% and 60% breakpoints count for that one NPC or for the entire game world as a whole? The third bit seems to imply the NPCs retaliate as a group but does that apply to stages 1 and 2 too or just for the 3rd?

    - Since the break points seem to be quite close to each other that would imply the NPCs has lot of units and attacks with small portions of it's army each time instead of it's entire force?

    - Is the intended gameplay to first chip down the NPC units on the defense, then goad them to attack more (killing more of their units in their small attacks) and then finish them off in one chunk? Or are the NPCs structured more like a robber camp that you can't finish off with one siege?

    - Do they build units (I know same question as above but relevant still) or perhaps get reinforcements from other NPCs

    • The rule applies per city basis. The group retaliation would be for the 3rd case only.
    • Correct.
    • The intended gameplay is to reduce the NPC units by defending well and with that decreasing the troops a little bit for defense players and for offensive players to do a big attack on the NPC village/city and clear them.
    • No, they don’t. The rebuilding of units would be a feature version 2.0 that we might introduce at a later point.



    Quote from Marshmallowman

    can you already tell what kinds of buildings the city has and how much pop we are looking at?

    The city population would be ~1000 and the building types would be resource related ones as well as defense ones like a wall and a water ditch. As this is a concept now, note that there could be some changes here. Which kind of buildings would you want to find there?



    Quote from Faust#EN(9)

    What with us active players? Im gona be under constant attack due to my big army cause i Play and I dont Sleep. OK? Not fair, first.

    These attacks are not all-day long. You’ll have time to sleep and build up units. For the 1st case, the attack would be triggered only once per day for a player that is near the NPC settlement, and this attack can hit just one of the neighbors. What do you think would be an adequate attack rhythm?




    I’ll be back on Monday to answer further questions that either came up or haven’t been answered yet.


    Wish you all a nice weekend 😊

    Quote from Scorox

    - All tiles on the map starts as 4446, 3447, 4347, 4437.

    Is it intentional, that you didn't list 3456, 3546, 4356, 5346, 4536 & 5436, btw? Or did you mean to just exclude 9c and 5c. ^^


    Edit: @Topic, Is your intention to make Kingdoms a PvE only game? If so, you're on a good way. The current situation is, that nobody wants to attack, because there mostly are only 6 villages/cities per kingdom, that you can get a real advantage of. Those are the 6 main treasuries of each treasury-holder. And those are filled with def, no matter how many governors get destroyed or how often they have been faked. Why? Nobody cares about the poor govs, because they mostly are irrelevant and provide just a little def. And if you want to attack the treasuries, you have to go through a at least 6-digit amount of units (in crop), I saw 150k as STATIONARY def once. Don't want to imagine what would have been in there in case of attacks, most likely 250k++. Now (also @Game Design), please take out the combat simulator and look how many off you will need to kill 250k level 20 def behind a level 20 wall + level 20 water ditch + level 20 stonemason's lodge - WITHOUT siege. If you want to use siege, expect even more def to be there due to doubled travel time.

    A little spoiler: We lost 223k off versus 182k HEROLESS def, with brewery level 20, without siege due to travel time. Imagine if they saw the attacks and put another 120k def in there + heroes (remember the 20% def bonus from heroes and weapon bonus).

    If you want to make attacking even harder, for instance by shredding off troops in npcs, making it harder to feed with npc 15c, and so on, you have a PvE game. While I would play a PvE game in Travian style from TG, I would not play a PvP game, which was made a PvE game step by step.hm

    Briefly and clearly said: the more rules Travian team impose to this game the worse this game become. What You should think about is - how to manage and prevent that trick - build the second village in 24hours..., not changing the cropper functions.

    Many players now use tactics of second village in 24h just to get cropper and that is the MAIN PROBLEM!. Players with a lot of gold will gold-up their builds, use NPC and you get typical pay to win scheme which is - disgusting. In some cases, I saw players who just do that in order to prevent some other kingdoms / players to grab that cropper,,,, even if they stop developing or playing it for real until the end.

    We have Natars, ( pretty much inactive) we have robbers... now changing the game for 9 and 15c... I guess I would stop playing this game if the upgrades keep going this way ..

    I think a lot of the negative criticism is very valid for this feature. If the rushing of croppers and inactive croppers is the problem, then consider the following:


    1) Don't release croppers until day 25 or around then. Either have wildrerness spots turn into croppers, making this relatively random or mark them somehow for players to plan around them, depending on the objective. Randomness is a better option, but one of the issues someone mentioned was "internal drama" around the croppers.

    2) Make it so a grey player's cap becomes the smallest pop villa, or just remove their cap all together, or simply add that 3 days buffer for either option in the event the player returns.


    Ultimately, you don't need to drastically change the game to fix an issue like this. This disproportionately affects defensive players, and makes getting a cropper daunting for new players and less competitive kingdoms. Even gold using defensive players may not have the resource commitment to meet the chief requirements until much later, and for non-gold using players it would be almost impossible without kingdom support (which may or may not, and some cases cannot, be given).


    Gold usage, and thus profits, aside I don't think these changes will work long term for the majority of players, gold users and non-gold users alike.

    I would like to see mid field attacks , someone attacking you , you and your team mates can meet incoming attacks before arrive field battles


    and can add more attackers from other groups

    1) Thought about this aswell. Likely offers and the overall high ranked ppl in a kingdom will get their villages first and bit by bit will the defenders and whatnot get the remaining ones donated. Tho new players (not even new as in beginners but in new to the local kingdom) will likely get none (of these, maybe a free 9c). In the beginners case this might actually be good (for their own and for everyone elses sake ^^) but it leaves the newly recruited hanging imho.

    2) Would name the tribe after something that got driven away in the real world. Native Americans, Maya (tho Natarians are kinga Maya/Aztec already), maybe an example of this from Europe/Eurasia if thats supposed to be, like Scythians (tho not sure if that fits time wise)

    3) Sure nothing fixed yet, still curious ^^. Would love me some levels in rax and stable so you could catch up on the starter hammers (tho unlikely if its intended to slow offers down. Then again, there has to be something built in there to reach cityhigh pop). Wouldnt mind 1 or 2 grannaries and highlevel marked either :D If its possible I would prefer the buildings so that you can chose where they are. Maybe either quest rewards or items (that you can only chip in in this village). Not sure if that would be possible but would really help fighting OCD. I know a couple of us really prefer fixed locations to the point where they dismantle buildings if the sitter/dual or the guy from whom they chiefed a village built it at the wrong place :D

    4) I would say they should either be triggered like robber hideouts (as in when you log in. Or if that not happening maybe at midnight or so) or a clearly visible time (tho that might be unfair to ppl from different timezones or with different sleep schedules in general. So i prefer the first.