Spiking rework/rebalance

  • @Strategic:
    Not really many farms a lot and still have shitty troops cause their account doesn't allow to have more than a certain amount of troops due to feeding so raiding allows them to have more troops but they won't ever have the troops a good account will have. Also raiding is easier for a new player rather than having a good capital or learning/understanding long term investment vs short term investment in terms of economy and troops.

    @Bukka: If continuous spiking would happen, the server will end up with good players still having large hammers (100k+) and new/average players with small hammers

  • @Strategic:
    Not really many farms a lot and still have shitty troops cause their account doesn't allow to have more than a certain amount of troops due to feeding so raiding allows them to have more troops but they won't ever have the troops a good account will have. Also raiding is easier for a new player rather than having a good capital or learning/understanding long term investment vs short term investment in terms of economy and troops.

    @Bukka: If continuous spiking would happen, the server will end up with good players still having large hammers (100k+) and new/average players with small hammers

    What are you basing this on? I think your out of touch with non-elite players. I and others in kingdoms I've played in have had to ask specifically how to farm, how build large armies, etc. Average players have no idea how to take the next step to becoming great because raiding makes all the difference. You can't just decide mid to late game to start raiding. You have to start early because the only way to raid a significant amount of resources to build a strong hammer (ie run a GB/GS) is to raid millions (be a top 30 raiding), which requires having a large number of raiding troops to begin with. Building a strong economy provides marginal resources compared to raiding, which requires an investment in a large number of horses that most people do not realize is worth it.


    Large hammers only exist because of raiding at least 5 M resources per week. And if you don't believe that we can start getting into the math. Nobody but the top players raid that many resources per week because it isn't easy and requires a large time investment. All of this I've learned in the server I'm on now because I still am a good/average player but not great. See my post history if you need evidence of that.


    tl;dr - I disagree spiking has a negative effect on new/average players. It reduces raiding which large accounts rely on, not small ones.

  • Hmm leo#EN(19) i disagree with your disagree'ing


    spiking affects all..... not just large players, It affects smaller players too, it's just larger players can recover easier from it and usually have a way to counter it, so in reality the smaller players are hurt more by losing the few troops they have & usually means they will delete rather than recover


    I don't farm, I'm not here to rant about it. But I still don't agree with it, there is little to no skill involved in sending a few troops to a grey village and feeling accomplished at killing troops in 1's & 2's, if you find pleasure in doing this then travian probably isn't the right game for you.


    As for not being to possible to have a decent account without farming, I disagree with this also. true i play as King atm, but even as a non farming part time Gov I still had a decent enough acc to be able to be in the HoF and support the kingdom and the WW in a massive way, you don't need to farm if you have good eco and infra.


    I think Activity is the main difference between what you would call "elite" and "average" if you are active enough you can also become a top player (being given the right guidance and advise from a good kingdom also has a big impact)

  • What are you basing this on? I think your out of touch with non-elite players. I and others in kingdoms I've played in have had to ask specifically how to farm, how build large armies, etc. Average players have no idea how to take the next step to becoming great because raiding makes all the difference. You can't just decide mid to late game to start raiding. You have to start early because the only way to raid a significant amount of resources to build a strong hammer (ie run a GB/GS) is to raid millions (be a top 30 raiding), which requires having a large number of raiding troops to begin with. Building a strong economy provides marginal resources compared to raiding, which requires an investment in a large number of horses that most people do not realize is worth it.


    Large hammers only exist because of raiding at least 5 M resources per week. And if you don't believe that we can start getting into the math. Nobody but the top players raid that many resources per week because it isn't easy and requires a large time investment. All of this I've learned in the server I'm on now because I still am a good/average player but not great. See my post history if you need evidence of that.


    tl;dr - I disagree spiking has a negative effect on new/average players. It reduces raiding which large accounts rely on, not small ones.

    Mh, there are a few flaws in your arguments.

    1) You don't need to farm at all to pay the training cost of gb/gs, it costs only ~75k for teutons and ~77k for romans per hour. A very good capital can produce this alone, but the more realistic case is that capital + 7-8 side villages produce this amount. Upkeep is where it gets tricky, not training cost.

    2) You don't need that much raiding troops. I don't think that I use more than 30k clubs for farmlists at once usually, if so much at all. If you raid with roman EIs, you need way less, because they're twice as fast and carry double the resources. Every (even non farming) offer should have these amounts, if he doesn't, raiding won't help him either ...

    3) Depending on how good of a start you have you can very well have 80k+ capital production. I can't really come up with com numbers, because I usually play de locally. But 130k+ production in an average account, that keeps an eye on economy is easily possible in the mid game. A economally good account can easily have 200k+ production in the late game. That's about 33 million per week. I really don't know com numbers, but I doubt that they are so much more in top10 raiders lategame? I mean, you talk about 5 million per week, no offense, but your account shouldn't have a smaller production than that anywhere midgame.

    4) Most people just farmlist with their hammer, no need to train additional troops, just farm with the ones you already have.

    5) It is easy in terms of it is not complex at all. But it's a repetitive and time consuming task. Yet any new player can do it easily.


    Also experienced players have a much easier time to farm not-so-experienced (but active) players, smaller kingdoms, and so on, the last 2 off accounts I played I would say it was about 50 : 50 in terms of farmlists and other farming.

  • It seems we're both citing anecdotal evidence here. In my experience, "smaller" and average players aren't raiding greys or anything. Not even part time. You were able to build a HoF account because you are an elite player. Do you think a new player can do that? In my mind, and I'm not HoF level so correct me if wrong, to get there you have to have one of the following:

    A) be a top raider

    B) be a king/duke of a top kingdom

    C) have a great capitol that's able to produce the resources


    plus the ability and knowledge to pull an account together to build the troops. Being elite means knowing and executing on this. Average and new players can't do this. I agree activity makes a huge difference, but I just don't see how you can build 100k troops without one of these three. You need 75k resources/hr as Be2-e4 points out below. With 3k per village, you'd need 25 villages. I'm not counting wheat because feeding troops or a cropper because we're assuming new or average player.


    One crucial difference in our arguments is that you assume average players raid grey villages but, again, that has not been the case in my experience.

    1) "Good capitol" assumes experience and knowledge that most players don't have, in my experience. I clarify because maybe I'm just playing with the wrong new people.

    2) I have a hard time convincing these players that you don't have to build even troops for each type and that you need more than 100. "30k clubs" is a huge difference between new/average and the top. Early in my current round, I was scared to build that many troops because feeding them seemed impossible. I asked a player on the forum dm how to do it and how to raid because after years I was tired of getting stuck. I agree they should have this many but there are plenty of people who wouldn't believe that other people have that many troops and are in awe when it politely visits their village with a destroyed village.

    3) New/average players don't know this. I literally asked a question (that I believe you answered) about building a capitol here. My 150% cropper only got to 60k and I've been playing since T3.5 (I've never been able to get to the "elite" level). Maybe it would be best to collect data through a poll on where people's production is at the end of a round. I don't think many people would have it close to how you describe.

    4) Farmlist assumes people know how to raid, that it's worth it, and that they pay for plus.


    I understand that in principle this is doable. I'm saying that people don't know how or that it's worth it. New players CAN do it. They don't. It takes a lot of time to learn this and their aren't any guides on raiding or building a capitol. There are "quick start" guides but nothing that says you should have a certain level of production mid game or that 30k clubs is expected. Even if it was, rarely do new players visit the forums. It typically involves joining the right kingdom and learning from them, which again takes luck and knowledge of the game. One of my biggest struggles is that I've always stuck with smaller kingdoms that are always destroyed. It took learning the lesson that top players are MUCH better before I could even get remotely close to learning how to raid and build a suitable offense.


    Now, the argument that keeping greys incentivizes players to raid those instead of smaller/newer players is valid. I just don't know the best way to encourage new/average players to follow all of this advice that you've laid out. Do you include raiding greys in the tutorial at the beginning of the game? Do you describe building a solid economy and typical troop counts in a guide? I think we can agree that by answering these questions we solve the larger issue in closing the gap.

  • One crucial difference in our arguments is that you assume average players raid grey villages but, again, that has not been the case in my experience.

    I don't know whether they do it, but they could do without problems, if they were willing to spend the time to do so.


    At your answers to my points:

    1) I meant with that, that a "high tier player" would easily be able to train a big hammer without farming - sorry if that was unclear. I'm aware, that almost no normal player has a huge capital.

    2) Uff. Okay, your average is another level than what I would consider average, maybe that's our communication problem here. I would consider an off player who does not celebrate in townhalls, tries to train 24/7 in at least barracks level 20 + stable level 20 and at least owns a workshop as lower end of average. Sure, there's a lot of people who just play their first round, or people who don't even care about playing well, because they just play to kill time and people who just don't take it seriously, but I wouldn't consider them when it comes to balancing. And well, everyone who runs his barracks/stable nearly 24/7 will have a good enough amount of troops to kickstart farmlist farming - if they want to.

    3) Hm, again, I think you misunderstand me. I wanted to point out, that high level tryhard players can and do have those numbers, and that they could create huge hammers without farming. But therefore, that not-so-tryhards are much more reliant on farming as additional income. I never wanted to say, that every average player has a 80k+ capital, that would just be false of course. Ultratryhards also just have a better time adapting to changes and so on, no farming, np, settle more consistently and don't get lazy in the end (exaggerated of course). I mean, you pointed out quite nicely, that the average you know doesn't have a strong infrastructure in their accounts. If they could get an additional let's say 30k resources per hour, it would make a huge difference for them, because their account produces like 60k? res per hour. But an account which has 120k production on its own sees 30k as peanuts. Again, exaggerated, but it should point out my point.


    We clearly argument on two different levels. You say barely an average player does that. I say almost every average player could do it easily. There is truth in both claims, no doubt. To be honest, I also don't care much about the advantage or disadvantage for a certain player group, I just couldn't leave the (in my level of argumentation) flaws uncommented. I actually don't care all too much about whether grays should be removed completely or not, from my account's point of view. As I pointed out, there are alternatives (raiding non-gray players) and having a good infrastructure helps a lot, it would change my playstyle a bit of course, but not to a point beyond adaptation. But there are a lot of other points, outside this "I farm, you farm, they spike"-stuff, due to which I wouldn't want them removed.

    1) From a company's point of view, you don't want to remove players. If they come back and see their account is gone, they go to another game and won't give kingdoms a 2nd chance for sure. TG knows this and does even reward gray players for coming back, by filling their warehouses to 50% and giving them 5 stolen goods. As a player I do agree with that, a game like kingdoms without players is no fun, obviously, so trying to keep new players at it is the way to go.

    2) If you force tryhards to farm active players, they will surely get frustrated quickly, before they can learn anything about this game and before they can appreciate it. A few guys argue, that big kingdoms couldn't invite all that many players, because they have to fight for resources - but - if this was true, only the players who don't give the kingdom too much would get kicked / not get invited. There wouldn't suddenly be more competition out of nowhere, instead of 100 members, a kingdom would have 40 members + 40 farms (+ 20 deleted). That farms wouldn't suddenly create a own 40 member kingdom and fight the bigger one, if they were that active, they would still be in the kingdom. Those 60 people who would fall out of the kingdom would be responsible for maybe 10% of the kingdom's troops, not a big deal.


    There probably are more, if I remember, I will post them later, but right now I'm tired as hell and almost falling asleep at my desk. Sorry btw, if something reads weirdly, I hope I could explain the core arguments understandably, like I said, I'm tired as hell.

  • 1) if you rely on the crop production from your capital to run GS/GB, wouldn't be training troops 24/7 tricky, if your troops eat your crop production from your capital? Meaning you'll have to fix 77k/3.75k= 21 villages?

    That's excluding all the bare necessities you'll need to do during the server, building up res fields, level up troops and buildings et cetera. So basically unless you plan to start making troops very late I can't see people running GB/GS early on without raiding.


    If you raid very well, you can reach new limits, was quite amazing to see big hammers like these in 1x speed Travian Legends (I played in that server, in dutch domain :P), due to their insane raid income.


    1ypJ5rb.png

  • The thing is that the basis of a great account is not its raiding stat but its economy. That's where lies the difference between having 50k troops or 200k troops, that's it. Whether you are gov, duke or king, you can raid as much as you want, if your account economy and logistics is underdeveloped you won't produce more troops than what you can feed with your raiding and you'll reach that level quite quickly considering the volatility of farming.

    As you said, farming/raiding its not something a new player would think of right away nor do, but its something a lot more easy to grasp than having a good account and theorycrafting the perfect balance of economy in order to maximise resources and investments in troops and buildings in order to maximise both capacity of production and sustain.

    Anyway, we are working on a full guide on how to build accounts for off/def players and other stuff. It will be released at the end of COM2.

  • if you rely on the crop production from your capital to run GS/GB, wouldn't be training troops 24/7 tricky, if your troops eat your crop production from your capital?

    I literally wrote in the very point you refered to, that upkeep is where it gets tricky, not training cost?

  • Anyway, we are working on a full guide on how to build accounts for off/def players and other stuff. It will be released at the end of COM2.

    I am looking forward to read it :love:



    If you raid very well, you can reach new limits, was quite amazing to see big hammers like these in 1x speed Travian Legends (I played in that server, in dutch domain :P), due to their insane raid income.

    Thank you for sharing this report! I hope, that Sch... list that name refers to, is still ongoing :D

    I actually don't care all too much about whether grays should be removed completely or not, from my account's point of view.

    The thing is that the basis of a great account is not its raiding stat but its economy.

    My feeling from reading this whole thread and seeing the turn, this discussion took, is, that it's not about spiking or farming. It's about finding the best way to create a big hammer. For that, you need to get a huge amount of resources from somewhere. The main part is not coming from farmlist, but your own villages. To enable your own villages to support training a huge hammer, you need to have a clear plan on how to do so: Destroy buildings you don't need anymore (academy), don't train all kinds of troops in every village, set up trade routes, etc.

    Community Communications Manager

  • My question here is: Do you see it the same way?


    Farming can make a huge difference, when done right. But only a view players are taking the time and effort per round to gain this effort. For the majority of the players, the focus is on getting their economy into a smoothly running system. And that is difficult to find out as a new player because the game depths here is not obvious on first glance.


    So spiking has been around for as long as Travian has existed, but it should have no place in the modern version of the game

    What is your actual whish to happen? And yes, I've read all posts before. I am asking about the why behind this original whish.

    Community Communications Manager

  • Personally from an impartial point of view (as i'm 100% not a farmer) I would like it to be impossible to rein a grey players, it just encourages troll players to gain some kind of recognition. I see no skill in this and it leads to a less challenging servers, as players either quit & start another server because of spiking or they stop farming and have weaker armies. spiking affects all players not just big/elite players, it also takes away from the little guys too (who cannot rebuild their troops as easily & usually end up deleting)


    all players should be allowed to farm (or not farm) grey players at their leisure, maybe it could be added into quests to make it clear to new players they are allowed to steal resources from grey villages

  • Personally from an impartial point of view (as i'm 100% not a farmer) I would like it to be impossible to rein a grey players, it just encourages troll players to gain some kind of recognition. I see no skill in this and it leads to a less challenging servers, as players either quit & start another server because of spiking or they stop farming and have weaker armies. spiking affects all players not just big/elite players, it also takes away from the little guys too (who cannot rebuild their troops as easily & usually end up deleting)


    all players should be allowed to farm (or not farm) grey players at their leisure, maybe it could be added into quests to make it clear to new players they are allowed to steal resources from grey villa

    just remove resource production of grey villages until they get active again. Way easier to solve, maybe increase resources from robber hideouts or lower defence.

  • Hello dear GMs,


    may i ask the question: Where is the sense that you can reinforce a grey village? Never had that hard spiking on a server then on the current com4. Why are you even able to reinforce an inactive village? Can you remove it if it is possible, because that spiking is destroying the whole farming stuff!!!!


    Have a nice day

    Sissox

  • just remove resource production of grey villages until they get active again. Way easier to solve, maybe increase resources from robber hideouts or lower defence.

    Only if villages turn grey after more days cause otherwise there is just not enough time between making someone your farm and them turning grey.

  • God damn it, please remove that senseless move that you are able to reinforce grey villages. The spiking in com4 is not normal anymore. Nr7 defender of the server has 72k def points only from spiking. I lost at day 100 around 20k TTs just because of spiking. You seriously want to chase away paying clients instead of removing that? I bet spikers dont pay for that game. Unbelievable how less GMs care about that.