Determination of size of robber hideouts and how to deal with them as a def player?

    Hello all, I have two main questions I'd like to be answered.


    Firstly, what determines the number of troops and resource amount (stolen goods too) of robber hideouts? Is it the combined attack power of my troops? Is it my village's resource production? Is it server age? Or is it a combination of these? I'd like to know how to predict and control their size so that as a def player I can still somehow attack them without being overwhelmed which leads to my second question.


    How do you deal with robber hideouts if you're not an off player? If robber hideouts do increase depending on your size (pop, res prod., off value) then as a def player do you have no choice but to let them attack you instead of you trying to crush them? I like to keep a small army for raiding but I'm wondering as the server goes on whether it'll still be possible to attack robber hideouts when 90% of your troops are def. Depending on what the robber hideouts depend on then I hope to minimise those and so deal with smaller hideouts in the future so I can still farm them instead of waiting for them to attack me at half their value.


    Regarding the first question especially, I want hard answers and numbers even to get a correct estimate (race and troop type of hideout is randomised to a point I guess but everything else should be hard numbers aren't they?). I've read on the internet and the forum of similar posts and NONE of them helped as they all just gave speculation. Where is this information available if at all? The wiki is certainly no help as it provides nothing more than basic info I see. Please don't give speculation, I've already done my own.


    Thanks in advance

    I can not answer your question for predicting the size of robber camps, but yes it is based on number of troops you own, size and age of server. I would not overly concern yourself on predicting its size because basically


    The more successful you are the stronger your robber camps are


    there is no way of avoiding this



    To help answer your question on how to deal with robber camps as a def player, Gaul has it the easiest.


    You can let the robber camp hit your traps before you attack the robber then clear the robber camp and the troops will magically disappear from your traps


    Another advantage Gaul have is they can build Hauds which are a duel role troop for clearing robber camps then serving as a defensive troop when the time comes as well

    Quote from Doubledealer#COM

    Firstly, what determines the number of troops and resource amount (stolen goods too) of robber hideouts?

    Troops: The amount of fighting strength gets determined first, based on the combined attack force of all your troops in your account (including def) and your account production, then troops are generated randomly, such that they have this fighting strength. Due to that, you will usually see very high numbers of clubs and scouts in robber hideouts.

    Resources: First 10 are scripted, further ones are based on daily production and some random factors.

    Stolen goods: Probably same, but not sure.

    Value of stolen goods: Amount of wood+clay+iron is based on population #1's account production, but gets reduced if your avatar's age is less than half of the server age (for instance avatar = 39 days, server = 80 days). Distribution between wood:clay:iron is generated randomly at your registration and won't be changed for the remainder of the round. Amount of crop is solely based on the amount of treasures in your kingdom.

    (Those aren't speculations, but confirmed information by support.)

    Quote from Doubledealer#COM

    How do you deal with robber hideouts if you're not an off player?

    As roman/gaul you can consider training EC/haeduans in one village as "def you can attack with". As teuton it kinda depends. Either you want until they attack (but reduce the amount of hideouts -> stolen goods and bounty massively by doing that) - or - you build axes in one village, if you use them for robbers only - or - you build clubs in one village, if you farm with them actively - or - you attack them with paladins, but not sure about that one. Good thing is, as defensive teuton you don't have much attack strength, spears have only 10 per unit I think, therefore there are less troops, but cleaning with paladins sounds just wrong.

    Quote from Doubledealer#COM

    Regarding the first question especially, I want hard answers and numbers even to get a correct estimate (race and troop type of hideout is randomised to a point I guess but everything else should be hard numbers aren't they?).

    Sorry, TG doesn't publish formulas for this. And since we can't really reproduce it efficiently or check formula ideas regularily, especially since we don't know whether acocunt production and combined attack strength are the only factors, one would have a really really hard time trying to figure out any formula.

    Alright, thank you very much be2-e4, you've provided more insight than anyone else has on this so far on anywhere from what I've seen. Pity the devs don't want to share this information but I guess I can understand if they want to limit any abusers or if it reduces their gold income. As a def player I just wanted to know if there was some way I could keep attacking them with a small army or if I had to resort to waiting for them to attack me if they balloon out of control later on (which I don't want because as you said they'll only respawn after I clear them and so less res and goods). I thought if I knew some values then a ratio of off to def troops could be estimated like 20% off and 80% def in terms of strength to minimise losses and still gain res out of the trade. I use kirilloid for this as I can see the resources lost from my troop deaths and compare it to what I get from the res and stolen goods inside the hideout to see my net gain, of course time lost is a factor but not so much early game. I just have to say it's such a good tool and many props to him for providing its many features, extremely useful. I did think about going for the haeduan idea later on as I'm gaul but I just wanted to see if there was something else people usually do to be able to clear robber camps while still being a def player. The options are mostly as I thought. Thank you for providing options as to what to do for romans and teutons as well. The part on stolen goods was especially insightful, I did not know of the random res distribution everyone gets for stolen goods when they register. Would you be able to further clarify for me what you mean by "Amount of wood+clay+iron is based on population #1's account production"? Is that the number 1 pop player in our kingdom and how much combined wood, clay, and iron all of his villages are producing? Thanks in advance.


    Quote from Three#US(1)

    The more successful you are the stronger your robber camps are


    there is no way of avoiding this


    I'm sorry but that is like telling someone that they're going to die some day and there is nothing they can do about it so they may as well give up trying to find a way to extend their life. People accomplish great things by not accepting their fate and not succumbing to the 'universally it's all meaningless anyway so it's pointless to try' attitude. You say "the more successful you are" but exactly how is this measure of 'success' determined? Because you see, once it is known then it can lead to more optimised game performance according to our playstyles. I can decide whether to keep a small army, or to go haeduans. Without this information then I am left to speculate and hope that the one I chose ends up being the better way.

    Quote from Doubledealer#COM

    Would you be able to further clarify for me what you mean by "Amount of wood+clay+iron is based on population #1's account production"?

    If you go to statistics (global, not kingdom internal), there's some player on rank 1 in terms of population. This player's account production influences the sum of wood + clay + iron you get from stolen goods. Then, let's say for instance you get 5k resources per stolen good, due to his account production - then the distribution of those 5k onto wood, clay and iron is determined by random when registering. You may get 1700 wood, 1700 clay and 1600 iron, but another player may get 2000 wood, 1400 clay and 1600 iron (don't forget, crop is based on active treasures in your kingdom alone). I wanted to point out, that only the sum is influenced by him, not the distribution. If he produces 100k wood, 0 clay and 0 iron per hour you will get the same as if he produces 0 wood, 100k clay and 0 iron per hour.

    You see his influence very well, when he goes into vacation mode. Vacation mode halts his wood/clay/iron production completely, such that his account production is 0 for those resources. The whole world then gets significantly less resources per stolen good. This is supposed to be reworked in the future.


    To be honest I don't have too much experience as governor def account, so I can't really give you some ratios there. I remember one account, I had like 10-15k off and up to 130k def there (roman account). Another time I used pretorians to clear hideouts early, they don't have too bad of an attack strength for that. Also, don't forget to train a single ram as soon as you hit 1k units, because you unlock siege then. It doubles travel time, but improves attack strength by 33% for this attack, against hideouts it's op.

    As gaul you have the luxury of being able to train haeduans later, I would go for that, their defensive stats aren't bad, for robbers it's a very good choice.


    The internal combat simulator from kingdoms works for this very well too, by the way - and you can send a hideouts army into the simulator with two clicks, so no need to enter the troops manually. Just use the extended version, you can enable it in the top right of the simulator window. Since the internal simulator uses the combat engine of the game, the results are exact (assuming you enter everything relevant - speaking of which, leave population for defender empty when simming versus robbers, population is relevant for players only).


    If you speak german, or trust an online translator of your choice, you can read some stuff about robbers (and other mechanics) here:

    Dies & Das - Kingdoms Mechaniken im Detail

    Thank you once again be2-e4 for all your input, many good tidbits in there. The first part about the resource distribution per stolen good being different for each player but adding up to the same total I got, but thank you for further clarifying it with the 100k wood/100k clay example. I now know what you mean by population #1 player.

    Quote from Be2-e4

    You see his influence very well, when he goes into vacation mode. Vacation mode halts his wood/clay/iron production completely, such that his account production is 0 for those resources. The whole world then gets significantly less resources per stolen good. This is supposed to be reworked in the future.

    That, I had not thought of. That is hilarious. When you say "gets significantly less", is it not 0? Or I guess there is some base amount which the largest pop player res production then adds on. Otherwise people would be getting 0 res for stolen goods XD.


    Quote from Be2-e4

    The internal combat simulator from kingdoms works for this very well too, by the way - and you can send a hideouts army into the simulator with two clicks, so no need to enter the troops manually. Just use the extended version, you can enable it in the top right of the simulator window. Since the internal simulator uses the combat engine of the game, the results are exact (assuming you enter everything relevant

    I had not even noticed that 'detailed' switch before! And I've been using the in game simulator quite often... I was irked that I couldn't put in pop and so resorted to using kirilloid to check but now I know.


    Quote from Be2-e4

    - speaking of which, leave population for defender empty when simming versus robbers, population is relevant for players only).

    Interesting, so how does the in game combat simulator deal with it then? As if you and the robber have the same pop? Leaving it empty versus giving it a higher pop makes no difference then?

    Quote from Doubledealer#COM

    That, I had not thought of. That is hilarious. When you say "gets significantly less", is it not 0? Or I guess there is some base amount which the largest pop player res production then adds on. Otherwise people would be getting 0 res for stolen goods XD.

    I'm not sure, whether crop of him is taken into account, this continues to produce during vacaction. But no, it's not zero, but really few resources only.

    Quote from Doubledealer#COM

    I had not even noticed that 'detailed' switch before! And I've been using the in game simulator quite often... I was irked that I couldn't put in pop and so resorted to using kirilloid to check but now I know.

    :D Sorry for giving the wrong name, I usually play local rounds only, it's not possible to change language there to take a look.

    Quote from Doubledealer#COM

    Interesting, so how does the in game combat simulator deal with it then? As if you and the robber have the same pop? Leaving it empty versus giving it a higher pop makes no difference then?

    If you leave the population empty, morale malus is ignored. So yes, it's the same to leave it empty or to enter the same population for both sides or to enter a higher population for the defender.