Teuton Hammer Clubswinger vs Axefighter

    Hi, I'd like to hear your opinion about Clubswinger[club] vs Axefighter[axe] in teuton hammer. Club is faster by 1 speed and carry 10 res more, that why it is better raiding unit than axe without a doubt. When it comes to hammer things have changed since T4and club hammer got a little nerf in T5.


    im taking into consideration gover off player (not duke,king)



    1. Resources. In T4 you had much more vilages=more resources, also there were artifact which reduce food comsuption of your units, or increase they speed so you could farm more (again more resources). We can assume , that the resources in T4were "unlimited" lategame and only thing which matter was atack power/h .

    Comparing to T5 you will have 11 cities , its 22 vilages (I think 11 cities as a gov off player is too much, last server top pop player had 13 cities but he was king and rushed for top1 pop acc), so lets make some calucations. Capitol production 15c 18 lvl fields +100% bonus (150% is nearly impossible to get and 125% will get king,duke so it is likelythat you will get 100%) =75k res/h, 1 city (4/4/4/6 with 50% bonus)=12.5k res/h. To sum up 200k res/h (75k + 12.5kx10). I ussualy go for cluster of villages around my hammer village so it is harder to get 50% bonus from oasis to each vil. All in all, you can get 15c 100% oasis bonus a gov off player, but getting 11 cities is pretty hard task so i will considering 11 cities economy as a best case scenario. I didnt count raiding becouse as a solo player you cant get reliable income (according to my experience top ariders are botters or 3+duals), you will also lose sometroops becouse of spiking. If you are not top farmer, the income/h from raiding is so small comparing to your eco that we can ignore it. Hideouts, i have no idea how lategame hideouts look like, i estimate they give 50k/h (you can give me info down bellow so i will edit my post and made calculations) your production 250k/h (very good eco, no raiding becouse solo player and your raiding income will be low so i dont count it, and hidouts giving you1.2kk res per spawn)


    2. Troops. In T4 recruting clubs was cheaper than clubs http://travian.kirilloid.ru/of…s=1.44&po&art=100&hm=27,0 You paid 10k res/h less for recruting clubs (than axes) and after 10 days they were break even considering unkeep (after 10 days you spend 10k more to unkeep clubs than axes)

    In T5 clubs got nerf you already pay 3k res/ h more to recruit clubs than axes http://travian.kirilloid.ru/of…&art=100&hm=27,0%E2%80%8B (the unkeep is the same so after 10 days you will have to spend additinal 10k re/h to ukeep clubs )


    All in all, if you are gov off player going for clubs might be not possbile, you spend 3k more res/h to produce them. After 50 days http://travian.kirilloid.ru/of…s=1.50&po&art=100&hm=27,0 you have to spend 67.5k res to que troops and 186,5k to unkeep (to sum up 254k) to get 10.5kk atack . So 50 days is the break point that economy doesnt allow you to recruit more. If you go for axes instead the break point is 67 day http://travian.kirilloid.ru/of…s=1.50&po&art=100&hm=27,0 and you get 13kk atack. If you go for clubs you get 10% stronger off(considering the same time of recruitment). Id only go for club off if im in premade team and i know i can rely on other mates to help me unkeep it in lategame but as a solo player id go for axes all time. I often hear in chat " iF YoU WanT tO cLEr roBBeRs Go cLUbs tHey ArE cHeaP anD TheY buiLd fASt" but i prove it is wrong, you only go for clubs if you are TOP off and only atack/h matter. if you are not going for hammer, get axes all the time they are cheaper. Id like to hear your opinion.


    Cheers

    1. 2 Villages give better income than 1 city. You should go for City capital + rest villages. Unless you settle on a cropper, then city those.

    2. If you're not farming as an off player then what are you even doing? Few mil res per week is hardly "so small we can ignore it". If you want to go for crop heavy army then you need to be a decent farmer.

    3. Imo teuton biggest strength isn't creating biggest ww hammer. It's creating decent hammer quick and cheaply to be frontliner in off ops.

    1. 1 Vilage give 6625res/h (2 vil is 13250), 1city is 12425 res/h, so the diffrence is 800 res/h (in favour of 2 villages) 11x 800= 8,8k more res/ h if you get vill than cities. I made assuption you will get 1 oasis 25% to clay or wood or iron and 1 oasis 25% to croop, if you go for villages getting bonuses from oasis is even harder. I d considering going for villages as cheaper options than citties, but they production per h is nearly the same 200k vs 191,2k less than 5% diffrence ( but you have harder time to get that oasis 50% bonus).


    2.Im not trying to tell what as an off player you dont farm,i checked 120 days server (normal speed) and in friday the top raider had 8kk res (8kk /5x24=66k per/h) yea thats a lot but he was top 1, i am not sure but thelast one in top 10 had 3kk res thats 25k res/h, top raiding players are mostly duals and botters if you are solo playergetting 2.5kk res is good (thats 20k res/h). I know you should be very active but you have life and cant afford that much time.


    3. The meta seems to be like premade teams are settling at prearanged area, simming and building big offs to crush enemy ww, and in this scenario axes seems better becouse you can get more attack power becouse they are cheaper

    You don't go clubs just for the lower cost but primarily for the faster build time.

    Best boost to clubs would be the removal of the 999 outgoing attack limit.


    If you do not plan to raid then you will never have the income to keep great barracks running. Best option would be to go axes and build slower.
    Axes are also a much safer option since they have the best defense stats for any off unit. They can't get sniped by a horse army like clubs can.

    1) Clubs don't cost more training cost per hour in Kingdoms compared to Legends. They cost even less. Despite being trained faster due to better training helmets.

    2) Training cost are irrelevant, if you get limited by ressources, it's by consumption.

    3) Cities are garbage when aiming for a good production and you need to celebrate parties to get good production. So a village gives you around 4.5k production (6.5k minus 2k for permanent large parties in TH10). If you celebrate properly and manage your culture properly, you can have easily 30+ culture slots (= 30+ villages) by the end of the world. We usually get close to 30 slots despite stopping celebrations completely after 90-100 days, imagine continuing to celebrate ... (note: key point to get here is, that cities don't have two townhalls and therefore produce much less cp, therefore get outscaled by snowballing villages. you don't decide "do I spend my 20 cp slots in 10 cities or 20 villages", but you decide "do I spend my 20 cp slots in 10 cities or my 30 cp slots in 30 villages".)

    4) As off account, you don't want to max your economy after a certain point is reached, because you can easily get enough income by farming and more economy = more population = more morale malus = your hammer fights up to 33.33% worse (which is an extreme case, I'd guesstimate the actual malus be around 13-20% in most applicable cases).

    5) You forgot workshop in your calculations (at least in the kirill links ^^)

    6) Depending on what you aim to do with your hammer, 3 small hammers (i.e. no BB/BS) provides much more benefits than 1 big hammer (i.e. BB/BS) - taking those examples, because training cost are roughly the same for both. You can go bashfarming (i.e. raid someones side villages, killing the little troops in it) more flexibly, you're more flexible and threatening in offplans and if you lose one hammer, you only lose 1/3rd and can still keep farming and bashing and if you lose half of your largely built hammer, you then basically have ONE small off (instead of two). Probably some more advantages (i.e. three 1k caps instead of one), but obviously that costs more upkeep, coordination and activity.


    That being said, the optimal variant, for an active and skilled account, who is capable of getting some resources from aside through farming and bashing, is to build clubs in multiple hammers, giving up a gigantic economy due to the morale malus.


    But, if

    - you're too inactive or to inexperienced to farm properly, you might want axes to save a big pile of upkeep.

    - you're too inactive, you might want to build one large hammer (BB/BS) instead of three small ones.

    - you aim for a WW hammer, you definitely don't want to build 3 small hammers, but rather one large one.

    - you're not actively bashing, but only using your hammer in offplans and for the WW run, you want to go full economy.

    - you're too inactive to get new villages build up quickly, you should consider going for cities.


    So, obviously it depends on your situation. If there was one definite answer for all and everyone, there wouldn't be a choice. The most optimal variant is to go for clubs when being a hardcore-player, for more-casual-style players the two variants might end up roughly even and depending on the player either clubs or axes might be more convenient. However, what one should definitely know and understand is the advantages of both variants and understanding which advantages you need, which ones you can use and which ones would go to waste.


    Summary:


    Clubs:

    + More attack strength per day

    + Better stats for farmlists (speed, carry and amount of units you have)

    + Better for bashing/bashfarming

    - Require more activity to fully unleash their potential


    Axes:

    + Far less upkeep

    + Better when used rarely

    - Far less attack strength per day


    Three small hammers:

    + More flexible in offplans, also more artillery

    + Less bad when losing hammers

    + Way better for bashing/bashfarming (multiple locations -> more area to farm covered, also more troops to bashfarm)

    + Better for farming

    - Require more activity to fully unleash their potential


    One huge hammer:

    + Easier logistic

    + Less upkeep

    + Better for WW hammers

    + Less activity required


    Semi-Economy:

    + Less morale malus

    - Requires lots of activity to make up for the lesser income


    Full-Economy:

    + Requires much less activity

    + Easier to use


    Cities:

    + Less activity required

    + Need less clicks to be fully leveled and less activity to fully build quickly

    - Much less culture points and economy


    Villages:

    + Much more culture points / culture slots -> much more raw production

    - Require more activity to fully build up


    I probably forgot some +/- points, maybe I'll edit them in when I get up tomorrow. I'm super-tired and go to bed now. :sleeping:

    So first of all, lets divide off players into 2categories, first are off players who doent use great baracks (gb) and great stamble (gs), they are semi active and they produce 30 days vecouse they cant unkeep big army. They will often ask king/duke to send them crop becouse they army is dying, they have hard time keeping -20k crop/h consuption, also they economy is poor and they very rarely farm, most of they raiding come from hideouts.

    The results after 30 days are (considering Baracks=B and Stabble=S 20 lvl workshow 20 lvl; GB and GS 0 lvl, helmet 15% to infi units) 31229 Club [88k unkeep] vs 18783 axes [75k unkeep]. You get 3 305 684 atack pwoer with clubs vs 3 085 859 axes. Your att power with clubs is higer 6.65% but you have to pay 14,77% more to unkeep.

    In my opinon small off players should go axes becouse they can produce more and bigger army, after 32 days you have the same power as Club off but you have to spend 78k to unkeep. All in all, i dont think they being "small" off player is the most optimal way to play, but every kingdoms has big number of such players. I often hear kings/duke told them to get clubs becouse you get better atack/h, but this results that "small" off players get handicapped fast, they cant build economy, send res to ww, even build army becouse the unkeep is too big, they often ask other kingdom mates to send them res even if all kingdoms players has crop problems. Considering that you only need 2 extra days to make axes off catch up club off (30 days production ) i will call "small" off players go for axes all the time. Of course we have to take under consideration the political situation, if enemies are close and you often fight each other than clubs are the way to go, but more often the fight takes place in lategame when axes outshine clubs becouse they are cheaper( i count unkeep)>you can produce more>you get bigger off.


    The 2nd category are ww hammers, duke/king have can afford to go clubs becouse tributes outshine hidouts. Considering the fact that treasuries produce crop/h, duke;king are not restricted by resources and they can go expensive club hammer. But if you are solo gov player and rank 15-20 raider you wont have enoguh res to justify going for clubs. Lets look into details. I considerate ww hammer to be 65 days of non-stop prosuction of B,GB,S,GS and workshop helmet 27% inf units (i checked some ww repports and some pople had 70 days some 55 but on average 65 accoring to my data). Results


    Troops/Cost: 158197 [ 75k production+ 272K unkeep=347k res/h] vs 95186 axes [72k production + 209k unkeep=281k res/h] , the diffrence is 66k res/hto ukeep hammers >>>>>>> 66/281=23,5% more you have to spend to unkeep club hammer

    Atack( i add everything;hero bonus weapon and so on) clubs 22 152 460 vs axes 20 099 455 , the diffrence is 2 053 005 atack>>>>>> 10,2% axe hammer is weak than club hammer


    There is very important concept travian keep pushing that has changed how travian works and thats simming. In T4 res production got increasy by 1.4x (comparing to 3.6), beginer protection(bp) used to last 3 days now 7, teutons used to take 20% more res if you build crannies. Now only with hero send in the atack you get tuton's bonus, also you cant farm oasis for free, you need have troops with hero in the same atack so likely you will lose more raidinng oasis (lost troops, hero full atack instead of full res resources)and finally 1k outgoing atack limit. The steps were made to encourage new players to play game becouse simming is more noob friendly than tryharding farming. T5 bring back 3.6 production but developers changed cost of units/ training time. No longer club is the only unit to go as off. You used to farm whole map with club hammer becouse you was able to send even 10k atackk from ham vil, but at the moment you have to farm from 5-7 vil as teuton to compete top1 farmer vs gauls TT or rome EI. So once again if you dont use bot and dont have 2+ duals i considerate 4kk mil per weak from raiding as a 14-20 raider a good score and thats 25kres/h. Once again if you are nnot super active going for several vilages with troops isnt worth becouse the cost of unkeep>raiding. Considering all of this your economy is the main sources of income. I belive that going for axes as a semi-hardcore player is the way to go. 281k unkeep/h is already hard to deal with. I dont belive youcant go club as gov off player considering you have to spend 347k res to unkeep, even if youfarm 15kk per week 90k/h and your economy is 200k, so your production is 290k but unkeep 347k.You need 57k more (if youfarm 15kk resyouneed duals or bot becouse thats 12h farming per day from 5-6vill as teut)


    To sum up,

    if you are duke/king with unlimited amount of res>clubs might be good,

    If you are hardcore gov>clubs

    If you are semi active gov going for big off >axes lower unkkep outshines atack power/h of clubs,

    If you are "small" off player>go for axes


    I want make this thread of [discussion of the week] a noob frindly content, so i appreciate every comment

    Be2-e4, when i wrote my coment i didnt read your answer, i agree with you 100%, im just fed up with veterans telling that clubs are only way to go as off player. You have to adjust activity and army size to unit composition. This is no longer T4 when clubs beats axe in every aspect of the game.

    T4 : axes 114 697k res/h vs club 105 604kres/h the diffrence is 11k in favour of club

    http://travian.kirilloid.ru/of…s=1.44&po&art=100&hm=27,0

    T5: axe 64 519kres/h vs club 67 467k res/h the diffrence is 3k in favour of axe

    http://travian.kirilloid.ru/of…s=1.50&po&art=100&hm=27,0


    1. Yea i agree club is even cheaper T5 than T4, but the cot of 24h prodution of units have changed. In t4 you used to pay 11k res/h more if you recruit axes than clubs, but in T5 you save 3k res/h.

    2,3. I agree

    4. Morale malus> if off player has bigger population than def player then the power of off player get reduce proportionally to population diffrence. (just so newbie can understand), good to know i never took that under consideration, that another reason to avoid cities

    Quote from Peak#EN(1)

    4. Morale malus> if off player has bigger population than def player then the power of off player get reduce proportionally to population diffrence. (just so newbie can understand), good to know i never took that under consideration, that another reason to avoid cities

    It's not proportional, the formula for the reduction is 1 - (defender population / attacker population) ^ 0.2, I believe that didn't change in TK compared to TL. Reduction is capped at 33.33%.
    For instance, having 1000 pop and attacking someone who has 500 pop with 1000 clubs results in your clubs fighting with only ~87.1% of their strength (i.e. only 40000 * 0.871 = 34840 fighting strength). Verifying in Ingame simulator results in 34842 fighting strength, the difference comes from some constant boni, 1000 clubs have 40002 (not 40000) fighting strength without morale malus.

    Quote from Peak#EN(1)

    This is no longer T4 when clubs beats axe in every aspect of the game.

    Well, in TL clubs still suffered from the high upkeep and therefore the requirement to farm a lot. Artefacts did help with that, but mostly the players who already were kinda active, why would you give a speed/diet artefact to someone who (sloppily formulated) can't even farm without one properly. In general, artefacts helped to build a lot of hammers, also they spawned roughly at the time the WW appear in Kingdoms. Don't forget the very short server length here.

    I wouldn't say it's too much different in Kingdoms vs. Legends, a govenor account in Kingdoms has similar options compared to a Legends account pre-artefacts. Maybe you farm a bit less in Kingdoms, because those stupid kingdomwide attack alerts which make it hard to farm farmable non-gray players who have their villages inside kingdom borders.


    Btw, a lot of farming comes down to scouting, clearing the few scouts and possible some other irrelevant troops and taking home those sweet filled warehouses of lesser active players. Iirc, when having farmed 85kk per week, around 55-65% was from that (scouting + bashing + farming), only 35-45% from grays.

    Quote from Peak#EN(1)

    T4 : axes 114 697k res/h vs club 105 604kres/h the diffrence is 11k in favour of club

    http://travian.kirilloid.ru/of…s=1.44&po&art=100&hm=27,0

    T5: axe 64 519kres/h vs club 67 467k res/h the diffrence is 3k in favour of axe

    http://travian.kirilloid.ru/of…s=1.50&po&art=100&hm=27,0

    Still no rams. :D But that's more of a buff to axes, than a nerf to clubs though. Btw: You should use cavalry helmet when going for an axe hammer.

    Comparision clubs vs. axes (yes, missing the hero weapon though):


    "Stündlich" (the selected tab) means "hourly". Guess I forgot to translate that.