Robbers for def players

    So i'm not a regular player I play 1 server a year when I have the time and i'm use to play as off teuton so clearing robbers is pretty easy and seems fair, this year I decided to join 2 servers, one of them is a speed server where I'm testing def style and clearing robbers becomes a tad unfair as either you have to invest in some small number of off units to clear them or wait for them to attack you first which takes a long time and therefor taking a long time to respawn which brings me to my suggestion: what if there was a button "provoke" on the robbers UI which will make the robbers attack you right away then you can clear them afterwards.


    Why? this will make robbers faster (still slower than off style cause you have to wait for robbers to attack you first) to clear for def players and thus more fair imo


    Would it be too op? maybe, cause in this scenario the player would benefit from wall/water ditch bonus which is greater than siege bonus so maybe when clicking on "provoke" the robber hideout's troop number increase depending on the def bonus you have (or depending on smtg else) or simply the bonus isn't taken into account when robbers are attacking (hello bugs my old friend)


    Would gauls be too op? cause of trapper maybe idk how everyone would see this but it's still a good point , the solution could be robber's troops are "untrappable" (I've come to talk with you again) or not cause to use traps you have to actually be gaul and you should be able to use traps.


    So what do you think abt this idea? is it worth debating around? is it legit? if yes can it be improved? or am I wrong to think def style needs a buff regarding robbers?

    I think that even with the wall bonus this would be a fine idea. A proposed change I would make to this idea would be that you could provoke them by attacking them with 1 unit, then they will immediately retaliate. When robbers attack though, they only attack with half their units, and they can attack up to 2 times, so you still have to kill 1/4 of the original hideout the same way, but it is a lot more managable this way compared to how it is right now. A good temporary fix for this, until they change hideouts that I personally use is to train haeduans in my capital just for killing these hideouts since it pretty much pays for itself and you will have some extra haeduans to use as def in a pinch. Hero levels is also a +. And the treasures help out a bit as well.

    You're reading this. Think about it.

    Quote from Tiitana

    Everybody will just provoke them to attack and boom half strength hideout that is clearable with less losses than normally.

    half strenght isn't right i agree thats why i suggested that the troop number increases when provoked, and it's kinda logic it's like if you provoke them they mobilize more troops to attack you or the attack becomes a siege which offers them more strength or just one of the 2 suggestions at random.

    Quote from Elijah_FR

    thats why i suggested that the troop number increases when provoked

    This will make it even easier for WWK and Rammers to be bigger since you can chop off losses in an unseen way. What harm does it make to have 1k Legionnaires + 1k EI / 1k Clubs / 1k Haeduans (or any other army combo you like) to clear robbers as a defensive player ? We are talking about 1k of consumption that is not only valid as defense in case of the Teutons...

    Quote from Elijah_FR

    half strenght isn't right i agree thats why i suggested that the troop number increases when provoked, and it's kinda logic it's like if you provoke them they mobilize more troops to attack you or the attack becomes a siege which offers them more strength or just one of the 2 suggestions at random.

    How is it logical that when citys governor attacks robbers they suddenly summon more out of thin air? And where do they go after that provoking thing is done? How about early/mid game when robbers do not have +2k troops in them to siege? What about those robbers that do not have rams?

    Quote from VIOLENCE 59

    This will make it even easier for WWK and Rammers to be bigger since you can chop off losses in an unseen way. What harm does it make to have 1k Legionnaires + 1k EI / 1k Clubs / 1k Haeduans (or any other army combo you like) to clear robbers as a defensive player ? We are talking about 1k of consumption that is not only valid as defense in case of the Teutons...

    I dont think it will make wwk and rammers easier as the player would have to invest in making def to kill robbers or his kingdom has to invest in it which is the same as it's a team game. and the harm abt making off for robbers is crop consumption as a small amount of troops isn't enough like in my case my robbers rn are 1k-2k in size and 1k clubs isn't cutting it so you have to sacrifice some def to make off troops not mentioning the time needed to make off troops when your kingdom needs more def sometimes urgently.


    Quote from Tiitana

    How is it logical that when citys governor attacks robbers they suddenly summon more out of thin air? And where do they go after that provoking thing is done? How about early/mid game when robbers do not have +2k troops in them to siege? What about those robbers that do not have rams?

    well the formation of robbers is from thin air, robbers just lurks around the map and sets up camps near you so calling other troops is kinda logic unless i'm mistaken. for the provocation thing well if if you kill them then the camp is free for raid but it should have a limited time and it disappears so players cant store troops their without downside. as for the early game i think siege isn't needed as troops are still not big enough to make it op.


    Friendly reminder: i'm sorry if i seem rude or anything i like to discuss ideas and get different opinions and i dont mean to be rude by doing so

    Quote from Elijah_FR

    I dont think it will make wwk and rammers easier

    It is because with your suggestion you are giving every player a chance to "provoke" Robber Hideouts, and you are even saying that they will attack with more than 50% of they army.


    You can't force players to choose between Offensive and Defensive roles to use that feature. That is nonsense :S


    This leads to lets say 25% of the Hideout Army force on it.


    If you give a chance for a WWK or Rammer to hit only 25% of the Hideout Army whenever they are online they will have residual losses, leading to huge armies since you don't waste (lets assume they wait for the Hideout to hit them) a potential 25% more casualties. This leads to less rebuild time, therefore more troops.

    Quote from Elijah_FR

    my robbers rn are 1k-2k in size and 1k clubs isn't cutting it

    You gotta wait for them to come and get you ^^

    putting it that way you are right, so what if when you provoke robbers you either kill all their incoming troops or the hideout disappears or if you provoke them and you dont kill all the troops you can only provoke them again this leads to no casualty to the hammer troops but youll have to invest in def this favors def players as they have to kill the robbers' troops with def.

    This whole idea was to give def players a faster clear so now im questioning if its doable.

    Quote from Tiitana

    Friendly statement: I like to be annoying and squeeze more info from others.

    XD please squeeze me

    Quote from Elijah_FR

    what if when you provoke robbers you either kill all their incoming troops or the hideout disappears

    That would fix it yeah, either you defend or you are not allowed to attack, also giving defenders def points and allowing for the hero to level up. Good approach :) I'd not say "disappear" but become unavailable to attack while the Hideout attack doesn't reach its target.

    Quote from Elijah_FR

    if you provoke them and you dont kill all the troops you can only provoke them again

    Also like this, you either commit to "Provoking" or you do it the regular way and wait 48h for them to attack you.


    But that being said I don't know if all defensive players will support this idea... Would be interesting to try it out though :thumbup:

    My concern is what is already mentioned, a change like this has to be for every player, we don't have a way to choose which player has that ability and which doesn't.


    I suscribe to the notion that having a small army, enough to make siege attack, in just one of our villages/cities is not that hard or disrupting for any defensive player.


    I would like to see other opinions as well. :)

    Quote from Unknown

    I suscribe to the notion that having a small army, enough to make siege attack, in just one of our villages/cities is not that hard or disrupting for any defensive player.

    i'm not an experienced def player i usually play off but what i noticed in late game the kingdom needs def a lot so camps running 24/7 is ideal and any interruptions are a risk so for me the optimal approach was to wait for robbers to attack you which takes a lot of time so idea was to give def players a faster clear which felt fair for me but it's just my opinion of an inexperienced def player.

    Quote from Unknown

    I would like to see other opinions as well. :)


    Quote from VIOLENCE 59

    You can start by the Official Discord, SS of the kingdoms you currently play on, etc... Just to give more visibility to your thread :)

    Alright fellas buckle up we are going public

    I am a little afraid about the hideout provocation, because some times (true story) already hammer players ask deff players, to help them to defend against their robbers, so they dont have problems with robbers. Or if you dont upkeep a robber clear army, how will you hit camps? But you can do something you attack the full robber, or the full robber attack you, but the robbers only fight with your own troops, reinforcements from other players will be ignored. And honestly i want to delete robber camps, because they are allways just make problems between the players, so more hideout or stronger hideouts with more reward , but if the camps stay, still good thing if you can fight with hideout in def battles. So the idea is not bad, just need to close the loopholes ;) So for example if you trap robbers, if you let them go, they will join the next robber hideout army :D but to be fair, i think trapper is not near the same lvl in lategame as the two other special buildings, and as a top player, you dont want trappers in your main village, so i think its okay if trappers can fight against robbers. :saint:

    Quote from dino

    I am a little afraid about the hideout provocation, because some times (true story) already hammer players ask deff players, to help them to defend against their robbers, so they dont have problems with robbers. Or if you dont upkeep a robber clear army, how will you hit camps? But you can do something you attack the full robber, or the full robber attack you, but the robbers only fight with your own troops, reinforcements from other players will be ignored. And honestly i want to delete robber camps, because they are allways just make problems between the players, so more hideout or stronger hideouts with more reward , but if the camps stay, still good thing if you can fight with hideout in def battles. So the idea is not bad, just need to close the loopholes ;) So for example if you trap robbers, if you let them go, they will join the next robber hideout army :D but to be fair, i think trapper is not near the same lvl in lategame as the two other special buildings, and as a top player, you dont want trappers in your main village, so i think its okay if trappers can fight against robbers. :saint:

    removing camps would solve a lot of problems (kingdom quarrels) but also if you remove them and make hideouts stronger that means more hero xp and rewards for everyone (*insert communism meme*) which isn't the case with camps (FIFO) so i don't know which is better but you make a fair point.

    As for trappers i think it would be too op in early game but again you have to chose to be gaul to have traps so it's fair and as you said you dont want trappers in your main in lategame.


    I want to: echo some of the ideas shared here; mention a few additional thoughts; and try to flesh out this conversation some more.

    The idea of 'provoking' a Robber Hideout is something that I've been thinking about recently - so it's nice to see that it is being explored more here.

    Quote from Tiitana

    Everybody will just provoke them to attack and boom half strength hideout that is clearable with less losses than normally.

    I share the first reaction that Tiitana has. Yes - this would absolutely be useful to governors/dukes who are playing 'defensive'. However, this is something that would be exploited by offensive players who are trying to build up the largest hammer's possible.


    Elijah_FR - that's a very interesting idea - increase the number of troops. I think that if something like this were to be implemented I would lean towards what VIOLENCE 59 suggested:

    Quote from VIOLENCE 59

    either you defend or you are not allowed to attack


    So, to recap (it's sometimes hard to read when there are quotes involved) what has been suggested so far is this:
    Creating a 'provoke' option for starting robber hideouts sooner than the 48 hour mark. To avoid hammers taking advantage of this - if you provoke a robber, you are no longer allowed to attack it.

    I don't think I've seen it mentioned - but if you provoke - it would make sense that they would attack full force (especially if the provoker cannot attack the hideout after provoking).


    I like this idea in theory. It would be beneficial for those defensive players. This is something that always get's brought up during the course of any server that I am on.
    Unfortunately, I just see too many ways that this would be exploited.

    Large offensive players could just get standing defense (or build it themselves from other villages). Now their armies are even bigger because they are getting the full benefit of robber hideouts without having to lose any of their own troops.

    I guess you could make it to where if a player "provokes" all troops that do not belong to that city flee... but this would cause a lot of issues I think. Especially if a Duke were to provoke a hideout and it kicks out all defense and he cannot receive defense and an opposing Kingdom get's lucky to send an attack that lands somewhere between the provocation and the robbers landing.
    ^^Obviously this is a worst case scenario and I don't think it would happen often, but it's an issue that needs to be thought of.

    I think overall, if this change were to be implemented in the described way, it would just lead to offensive players having a small defensive force... I think it would just reverse the roles that we currently have. Currently, we have defensive players who keep a small offensive force for clearing hideouts. I think with this you would just get offensive players who keep a small defensive force.
    A side effect of this change would be larger hammers.


    Just some thoughts. I'm curious what others think.

    Best,

    W.D.

    Since the goal here is for defenders to also be able to stock defense points throughout the server like offensive players do with hideouts only and contribute with more Stolen Goods for their respective kingdoms I would say this would be a good description of a "Provocation":


    "If you Provoke a Robber Hideout you need to kill all his troops defending. Only then you can "unlock" the "attack" option to get the loot and the Stolen Goods"


    One thing that we all must keep in mind is that enough Catas might be able to do some damage, so I still think a small offensive presence in a defensive account won't hurt your game. Gauls have Haeduans. Romans have Legionnaires. You probably will wait 48h for the attack instead of Provoking but comparing to a current round you will be able to stock more defense points and have more stolen goods assuming that you provoke hideouts once a week.


    If this idea has its debut someday it will be funny ! You'll want hideouts full of Phalanx and Spears instead of Clubs and Scouts ^^


    Roman deffers will hate Rams 100% :D


    Regarding Hammers, we will probably see new records being set, which is always cool :thumbup:


    But this idea is good because it doesn't force you to anything. You can still play the way you are used to if you prefer :)