Romans should generate CP at an slightly increased rate

  • Hi,

    I think that Romans are a tribe that has a rough start, but if they survive the early game, they can start shining. I believe this would level the playing field a bit.

    I'm thinking the boost should be maybe 5-10%... I'm not sure if it'd be too OP, it'd be useful if somebody could run the numbers.

    A bonus point - As a tribe/people they do/did come off as more 'cultured', I think it'd make sense if that showed somehow.

    roman-bored

    Thoughts?

  • I don't think this is a good idea. Romans have many strengths which just need a little tuning. No need for completely new features.

    Romans used to be, and to some extent still are, a very balanced tribe that really starts to perform when you have big armies. Romans have the lowest crop upkeep per power both offensive as defensive. Their cav also trains very fast. Problem is, cav def is cheap and there are more options. With so many gauls in the game cav off is always worth less than inf off.


    Romans have the extra building queue, which makes them very good for non gold users. Romans would be a lot stronger on any server where gold usage would be limited.


    Another big problem with romans is that their wall is so extremely easy to destroy. This means you have to make ditch to effectively defend in the late game.

    Maybe a good change would be if romans wall could be a bit more resilient at higher levels.


    But what I really think the problem is with romans is their cavalry options.

    I think what would be better is if EC got buffed to 185 attack (5 more than current) and got the iron cost reduced from 600 to 550. They can hand in some def points to make it more balanced. This would make EC the best offensive cav unit per crop consumption. Current best is EI by only a little cause of the way the smithy works. EC would have second highest power/training time (HDT at 20), highest power/crop (HDT at 20), and manageable price. Many players will still go EI cause EI are so much better at farming. Maybe EC should just have 35 carry capacity, make them terrible for farming.


    OR make the EC better at def. Rework to 120-150 attack, +/-110 inf def, and +/-125 cav def. Bit like the Resheph Chariot from Legends.

    This essentially makes them a lot like the legios. With HDT at 20 you have a unit with 50/36.67/41.67 stats per crop. (legio has 40/35/50)


    Another good thing about romans which might be buffed a bit more is the senator. If buffed by 5%, 3 senators will be a guaranteed chiefing.

    While we're at it, lets get rid of the randomness from chiefing. There is almost no randomness in the game, why do we need it with chiefs.

  • romans 1 time sure chiefing with 3 senators would rock..also just a bit more def for EC since they dont really have defensive cavalry and praets are so slow!

  • OR make the EC better at def. Rework to 120-150 attack, +/-110 inf def, and +/-125 cav def. Bit like the Resheph Chariot from Legends.

    This essentially makes them a lot like the legios. With HDT at 20 you have a unit with 50/36.67/41.67 stats per crop. (legio has 40/35/50)

    Unfortunately those def stats per crop are only with HDT, and if you def someone without HDT they become much worse.


    And since roman wall is useless, you don't often def someone with HDT so def stats you would have to consider are 27.5/31.25 per crop. Which is almost as useless as roman wall.


    To make them viable as def units, they would need def stats as you suggested and 3 crop upkeep without HDT.


    If Romans had same bonus for Stonemason as they have for Trade office (i.e. twice the bonus of other nations), then wall could be viable and maybe EC would be useful as def unit.

  • That just means you don't use them as standing def.

    You just gotta make sure you don't send them super early.

  • Equites Caesaris

    - best cavalry unit per training time in off

    - best cavalry unit per training time in def

    - second best cavalry unit per crop in off

    - third best cavalry unit per resources in off

    - their weakness is crop and resource cost in def

    - when you buff them in def, they will shoots up in crazy numbers in def and no one want to play anything else, because roman cavalry will be best in everything, raiding, off and def.


    Equites Imperatoris

    - best raider unit in game

    - best cavalry unit per crop in off

    - second best cavalry unit per training time in off

    - second best cavalry unit per resources in off

    - third best cavalry unit per training time in def

    - again, their weakness is crop and resources cost in deff


    - Roman cavalry problem is they are very similar, just EI are much more better in raiding.

    If you know, how to use them, they are strong in both, off and def, crop consumption in def is no problem for active def player, because you are still losing some of them.

    - Buff CP for romans is crazy, when on the end of the server are most roman players in the top of population.

    - Roman wall is best against raiding and solo attackers, you cannot take out some weakness.


    Game no need to tune the tribes, they are perfectly balanced. This game need to tune gameplay.

  • Druids and Haeduans are better def/training time than EC

    "third best cavalry unit per resources in off" is... bad. They are tied with TT in cost per power but TT are the best raiders so they make up for that. Haeduans have mad cav def. Given that they are tied with TT, you could also call them 2nd WORST off cav.

    Buffing the def of the EC like I described will still mean they are a lot worse than Druids. They will be roughly the same as Haeduans but with more inf def and less cav def.

    They are still very slow. They consume 4 crop when stationed at a village without HDT, making them the worst standing def of all def units.

    Training speed isn't that important for def units anyway cause the cost of keeping barracks going 24/7 is going to be roughly the production of a city. This means that if you train def in stables you will only train very little.


    All in all they would still be bad, just not absolute garbage.


    Also, TT is better than EI in terms of raiding.

  • There are a lot of thoughts about this but one thing I have not seen addressed yet......


    If you tweak the Romans to be good at start then you must also tweak the other tribes to keep the balance in check.


    As you state, the Romans have a rough start but shine later in the server.

    Teutons shine at the start but lose some of their fluff later in the server(clubs are kind of weak but cheap)

    Gauls I feel are kind of slow at start but come into their own shortly after.


    So if you tweak the Romans then you must also tweak the other 2 or there will be protests as this is only addressing one tribe and making it better then the others. No one will buy that.


    With all the people who play and the different ways that are played, there are too many arguments about what tribe is better at what.

    In the grand scheme though, making one better then they all must be adjusted for that balance factor.

  • If you tweak the Romans to be good at start ...

    Heya, I wasn't suggesting we make them good at start. With my suggestion, the intention was to help bridge that gap between early game and mid/late by being able to acquire villages to generate resources faster.

    I was coming into this with the perception that Romans have it tougher than the other tribes, therefore, this suggestion was meant to balance things out, rather than make things imbalanced. However, if the general perception is that the 3 tribes are perfectly balanced then yeah I suppose you're right and doing this wouldn't make sense without buffing the other tribes too.

  • If Romans had same bonus for Stonemason as they have for Trade office (i.e. twice the bonus of other nations), then wall could be viable and maybe EC would be useful as def unit.

    I dont agree with the CP bonus for romans, but I think the above comment is a cool solution to the weak roman wall.


    It would mean roman capitals can be usefull for mega treasuries without making it too OP, since it's only capital that can build this building.

  • Ok, maybe first check the numbers how they are and then write here.

    -Per training time in deff is like this: 1. EC, 2. Heaudens, 3. EI, 4. Druids. If you cannot calculate by your self, you can find many pages where they did calculate for you, just check it.

    - third place is not bad, when in other satistics they are better, you must have some advantages and disadventages. At this case, you can say TK are bad, because they are third in OFF per traning time, but first in cavalry OFF per resources.

    - TT are fast, but with EI you can farm much more, because you build them faster so you have a more of them, they have better capacity, also better off number, so less dying when farming. But I agree TT are good as well, its about your style.

    - We talked about cavalry def, not about standing def. Cavalry def is mostly used for quick defense or they are sent on time, not for perma def, crop cunsumtion is not so important here. Again, advantages and disadventages.

    - If you are not training 24/7, your comment lacks meaning, training 24/7 is the basic of the game. So first learn how to do that, its not difficult, you can easy do it in every city as a governor without help.

    If you can feed them and not lose them, there is no problem to make much more then 100k cavalry defense unit per server with much more infantry defense troops.

    When you learn about incoming resources, you will have a better gameplay, trust me ;-)

    - Yes, gauls OFF cavalry is very bad, worst in the game, thats true. And also nobody want to change that.


    As I say, I think game is balanced very well, you have to find your playstyle, what do you like. There are many of them, many ways, how to play each tribe and how you can help your kingdom. But that does not mean to change balance of the game just for what do you like.

  • I dont agree with the CP bonus for romans, but I think the above comment is a cool solution to the weak roman wall.


    It would mean roman capitals can be usefull for mega treasuries without making it too OP, since it's only capital that can build this building.

    As a mostly roman player I would like to see this also, just on the other hand, there will be only roman big treasuries, you know it.

  • TL:DR (only replying to OG post)


    in the end Romans end up being a really strong Off tribe, they also have the advantage of easier feeding & of the dual building (which in itself generates them more CPs faster, so they kinda already have it if you know how to sim)


    so no, I don't think Romans need extra perks, different tribes bring in different aspects, if one isn't working for you maybe try another tribe :)

  • Ok, maybe first check the numbers how they are and then write here.

    Maybe you should check the numbers.


    Unupgraded def power (inf+cav) per second training time:

    Haeduan: 225/(52*60)=0.0721

    Druid: 170/(42*60+40)=0.0664

    EC: 185/((58*60+40)*0.8)=0.0657

    Upgrades favor the ones with the lower training time (the flat increase per unit) so druids benefit the most, then EC, then Haeduan. This effect won't be enough to push EC above Haeduans.

    Upgrading stables has the same proportional effect.

    EC is worse than druids and haeds.

    And I don't know what you were thinking when you added EI in that list but hey, lets also calculate those.

    EI: 115/(44*60*0.8)=0.0545

    While we're at it, lets add the paladins.

    Pala: 140/(40*60)=0.0583

    So... Haeds > Druid > EC > Pala > EI and that is with HDT, without HDT palas are better than EC.


    Capacity * speed / cost:

    TT: 75*19/610=2.34

    EI: 100*14/790=1.77

    TTs are the best in the game in this stat. Closely followed by clubs.


    Capacity * speed / training time:

    TT: 75*19/(41*60+20)=0.57

    EI: 100*14/(44*60*0.8)=0.66

    So when you have HDT EI become better. But until then TT are better.


    If you are able to raid peacefully you will get to upgrade stables and other training facilities faster with TT raiding income.

    This means you get to max raids faster. When you are at max raids the carry capacity matters less and the speed matters more. Then TT are better again.

    EI are very good raiders, but TT are better


    Max income gov city no gold:

    Crop is for upkeep. Oasis varies, lets assume crop oases so you can actually sustain enough troops. This is especially the case when the WWs are there.

    12 fields, 375/h, 25% bonus from buildings

    12*375*1.25=5.625

    Lvl 20 barracks training praetorians consumes train 3600/((29*60+20)*0.14)*(80+100+160)=4968 resources per hour.

    That is 657 surplus per hour. Not enough for even one EC. With gold you'd have a surplus of 2063 which is enough for 1 EC, but not for 2.


    So yeah. Most roman players won't be able to train EC for def. IF you farm you are better off having no cities, just more villages and using the extra income for more praetorians.


    And finally.

    Yes, TK are terrible off cav. Teuton hammers are good because of inf, not the cav. The only reason you build TK is because it is better than nothing.

    There have been multiple servers where I chose not to make any TK but instead make many smaller pure inf hammers with some catapults. And it was well worth it. This was back when we still had the 1k raids/village limit instead of the 2k in total.

  • OK, how I see, forum is ocupated by new players, so ... talking about unupgrated units is really joke.

    Dont do it, never. Count with full power, so at 20 lvl upgrade, with weapon and with Horse drinking. I am really hope, you are upgrading your troops. Trust me, help you a lot.

    Also, when you made calculate raiding with speed, you need a bot. Because without them, you cannot use full power, just try another count or try it by your self in real. Then, write here, what numbers you did in farming, I am really interested in. With your count, paladins are also good in farming, so, try it :-)

    About defense. Choose, what you want to do. You want to do high defense number (about by half) and faster to move? You do cavalry. You want perma def? Then do prets. You know, how to do both? Do it. But count only with village production is really bad calculate. You have much more income, treasures, oasis, farming, your main city with high crop fields ... I dont want to learn you here, but how I see, you need to check game options much more.

    About the TK. You say they are terrible, but they can do about half of german OFF power. Is it so bad for you? Everything, what you wrote, is not from your experience, so try it, then i like to see, how you do.


    Don't take it personaly, I just answered to your feeling about upgrade troops, numbers are allready know after many years, but you try to change them.

  • Right. Upgrades work different in Kingdoms. Somehow EC gets 46.25% bonus when leveling to 20 and a druid only gets 26.08% bonus. In Legends its all roughly 35%.

    Still, Haeds > EC


    Upgraded:

    Haeduan: 296/(52*60)=0.0949

    Druid: 221/(42*60+40)=0.0863

    EC: 263/((58*60+40)*0.8)=0.0934


    Haeds > EC > Druids in terms of training speed.

    Yet... EC cost so much more that you'll hardly be able to keep up training them. If you want to train cav for def you'd better be playing gauls.


    If you reach late game with wonder def and have more crop income than def, you've not been training enough.

    Last time I was def with romans I had a 150% 15c with fields 18, and 18 other villages, total crop production ~137250/h. 100k in wonder (50k upkeep), 30k in treasuries, 20k on hand, and a 20k scout army. 120k upkeep + you gotta send more to wonder cause there are always people who don't send enough crop. You have crop to spare for npc into resources so you can fill queues?

    Maybe you just play speed servers where pop and upkeep don't cut that deep in crop production but in 1x servers you should have pretty much all your cropper income go to maintaining your troops by the time WWs arrive.


    And yes, ofc you make TK if you build one big hammer. With Brewery they are good enough for pure power. But is that really all you use it for?

    Good off cav is fast and allows you to hit enemy off troops at home. You just can't do that with TK. TT are amazing at it and EI are good enough. Have you ever hit a Teuton hammer at home with a TT or EI ghost hammer? I doubt it, otherwise you would have thought of that factor.


    The bottom line is still that EC are bad. You should never go for EC. If you go off you go for EI. If you go def you go Praetorians. If you want enough cav def that is also fast enough to actually do its job then you should have played Gauls.


    If you know better, please, post your own calculations.

  • When I make def roman acc I make pretos and EC in capital rest of villages are pretos, pretos, pretos and pretos.
    + Since I'm lazy I do not farm.
    ++ Just wanted to comment even it is not in the topic

    You make EC in capital IF you have res left after the praets, right?

    So basically you never focus EC, right?

  • Romans are a tribe that has a rough start

    I disagree with this. Researching Imperatoris at academy and stable level 5 is easy enough to start account for any direction. Off Def etc

    Legion is cheaper than phalanx with almost same stats + attack abilities.

    The thing that makes Legion bad is train time, which is not very important in early game.


    Plus this

    dual building (which in itself generates them more CPs faster, so they kinda already have it