Treasures shouldn't give any more crop than they give other resources.

  • It's beginning to get rediculous. I currently produce less than half of the crop I would need to feed my troops and my granary is always filled up if it's not overflowing. The treasures I sell outproduce my crop production by a long shot. Isn't that a bit stupid?

  • I don't understand why it's bad game design.


    I mean the later the game goes, the kingdom you're in should have more treasures, and you should also have a larger army to feed. So it all works hand-in-hand.


    If you find yourself with too much wheat for whatever reason, that just means your army's not eating enough of it.

  • It's bad game design because it removes the need to build your account up correctly. Correct account buildup has been superseded by treasury income. You're being given way too much for free in this game.

  • I don't know if "correctly" is the right word. Differently certainly is.
    The fact that building differently than the same way as it was in previous version doesn't mean it's bad. It just means that we have to find the new way to optimize it.


    Same goes for the resources reward in my opinion. It sure comes as a shock for someone who has played so much on previous Travian version. But as we've discussed in other threads, since your V2 is key for your account development (even more so than in previous version, because of the kingdom/alliance stuff), giving free resources early on may not be a bad stuff.

  • Early on it's fine since it speeds up the beginning. We're past "early on" now, the rewards shouldn't be too big afterwards. I've seen reports from closed beta with hideouts giving 150k+ of all resources so it's not like the resource flow stops at some point in time. It SHOULD stop, and then have regular account production/raiding take over completely. Instead, you can just do whatever and not have it fail you since you're guaranteed your free buckets of resources anyway.


    At the very least the amount of crop shouldn't be this stupidly big. You want to support an army, make an account that can support it. I understand you could optimize your way of playing and just play differently, but that doesn't remove the fact that you're just being given a crapload of resources for free.


    If you feel like "Oh it's this old dumb veteran guy, ranting again", tell me this: Let's say it's Travian Kingdoms version 15 and all kinds of production are there but their need has been removed, need for raiding is removed, since all you need to do is login and YAY here's 500K of everything, go and have fun. Would you think that's proper game design which requires only the player to optimize the way they play (login a million times a day or something), or would you be arguing with the next generation of noobs that the game has gone to **** since accounts don't need to be thought about, skill and teamwork are gone from the game, evertying is being given for free and it's a total casual game now?


    I've been arguing that since the start of T3, when oases (that give resource production) were introduced, along with capital fields > 10 (that ensure you don't need to build the rest of your account that well, just build a huge capital and you're golden). That's the kind of game I wanted to play, easy to play, hard to play well. Since then the game was made far and far easier with T4 and now it's taken another further step. They're almost shoving the resources in your face. At least the arti's (also introduced with T3) got removed again, so that's one step in the right direction at least. I don't want a return to T2 or T3 mind you, I just want TK to be challenging because only then will people invest time, become active enough to talk to people, i.e. not be casual players. In T4 there were only casual players. What we need is to have the healthy mix back of casual/semi-hardcore/hardcore people we used to have in T2/T3.


    - - - Updated - - -


    Building costs have also gone through the roof in comparison to T4.4 and older. The extra resources at least help with this.


    This is true, but what will happen instead is that most people just won't build the higher level buildings. I know that's different from how better accounts will play it obviously.

  • It's bad game design because it removes the need to build your account up correctly. Correct account buildup has been superseded by treasury income. You're being given way too much for free in this game.


    Move to a lousy kingdom where there are no treasures -- that'll solve your wheat "problem"

  • Yes, perfect solution to bad game design: Play very suboptimally so you'll lose every time :/ No, I'll fully abuse this problem since I don't have much of a choice, but that doesn't stop me from calling it bad.

  • I don't get your point Ammanurt.


    First of all, I think the amount of resources you get with Hideouts is tightly linked to the shorter server duration.
    Next, saying "building your account correctly is now useless because of free resources" seems wrong to me. Take 2 players: one who has built his account well and one who hasn't. Well guess what, the one who has built his account well will always have more resources than the one who hasn't. And it's not like there's a point where you have too much resources late game in Travian.
    In the end, having all these free resources may be worse in the end for a "normal" player. Yeah sure everything seems fine in the early stage, but by nature knowing how to build an account properly is extremely snowbally: if your knowledge allowed you to make your V2 1 or 2 days earlier than a "normal" player, you'll only increase this gap further and further, all other things being equal. Thus the normal player is not incentivized to start properly in his early days: his mistakes are hidden by all the free resources he gets.


    Quote

    What we need is to have the healthy mix back of casual/semi-hardcore/hardcore people we used to have in T2/T3.


    Not like it's very different here.
    I highly doubt you'll see casual players being in the top spot of this game.

  • I don't get your point Ammanurt.


    You do, I think! You just made part of it for me ! :D



    In the end, having all these free resources may be worse in the end for a "normal" player. Yeah sure everything seems fine in the early stage, but by nature knowing how to build an account properly is extremely snowbally: if your knowledge allowed you to make your V2 1 or 2 days earlier than a "normal" player, you'll only increase this gap further and further, all other things being equal. Thus the normal player is not incentivized to start properly in his early days: his mistakes are hidden by all the free resources he gets.


    Precisely! So why doesn't the game incentivize proper account build-up instead of giving free resources (which is an incentive to do the opposite)? Alternatively, just don't give free resources at all and incentivize people to attack other players instead of hideouts. That would be better game design.



    First of all, I think the amount of resources you get with Hideouts is tightly linked to the shorter server duration.


    Probably true, but why give the resources for free? If you want to speed-up the resource production, make creating fields cheaper, you'd get the same result but not for free (you'd still need to realise the investment in resource fields).




    Next, saying "building your account correctly is now useless because of free resources" seems wrong to me. Take 2 players: one who has built his account well and one who hasn't. Well guess what, the one who has built his account well will always have more resources than the one who hasn't. And it's not like there's a point where you have too much resources late game in Travian.


    Ok, I overstated that. Of course, ceteris paribus the player who has built his account well will be better off than one who hasn't. That doesn't mean we should start giving out free resources though.



    [/COLOR]Not like it's very different here.
    I highly doubt you'll see casual players being in the top spot of this game.


    Not in the pop top 100 (?) maybe, no. But below that, plenty of casual players. People who just sim, don't really talk, don't participate in anything, don't build much troops, etc. In this version (as in T4), those people are kept safe instead of turned into farm because of tributes (more free resources): More casual players in this version. I doubt the mix of players here is as healthy as it used to be.

  • Yeah you're right. The more I think about it, and reading our posts from the beginning I can't say I'm really pleased with the Hideouts mechanism.
    Treasures should indeed be a good resource income in the early stage of the game. But as the game progress, they should be more scarce/harder to get.


    Problem is, how can the game make them effectively harder to get?
    Obvious solution would be to increase the amount of troops protecting them, but I'm under the impression that it's already very punishing for a def player to clean the hideouts easily. Even if he chooses to let the hideout attacks him (meaning 50% will crash on his def, leaving only 50% on the hideout), when you get late game you still need to have a little off army on the side to clean the 50% left. Plus, a player who went for off will be able to clear them much faster, making them respawn faster too. Well not faster per say since the delay between 2 hideouts would be the same for the 2 players, but the off one won't have to wait for the hideouts to attack him. So it's very snowbally for an off player, which isn't very healthy given the fact that off players are already rewarded by actively raiding.


    Hideouts should stay as a good early mechanism but shouldn't exist later on in my opinion.
    Early on you don't really need too much troops to clear them anyway, so you're not pushed too much into training off troops. The resource income is good, allowing you to rush your V2 easily. Keeping it in mid-late game is being way too lenient with the players though, too permissive. A bad player in previous version may end with a "mid-low" account on TK simply because of all the resources he got.


    Only problem with removing hideouts for mid-late game would be the treasure income. As for now, for mid-kings (meaning not top offer), tributes (=hideouts) is the only way for you to get a sustain treasure income. And it wouldn't be reasonable to simply removing Hideouts mid-late game, pushing every king to create an off if he wants to gain more treasures. Not all kings must play off.


    What could be a healthy mechanism in this case?

  • How many crops are you guys getting from hideouts, crop is usually my lowest one, or are you referring to the stolen goods? at which point, crop is still the lowest one for me too (by far)

  • Last Hideout my governor cleared he got:
    3.6K Wood & clay 2.8K Iron 3K Crop + 6 treasures.


    Hideout was:
    180 Club
    58 Axe
    246 Scouts
    33 Pala

  • How much did he get for selling the treasures? That's where the crop ratio goes insane, not the basic resource amount.


    @Wynd: OMIGOSH somebody finally asked me that question. This means I get to copy a thread of mine I posted on the closed beta forum. Too bad the part of the forum where the thread lives has been removed though. But what it basically amounts to (perhaps I should make a new thread):


    Right now everything depends on simming. Start big, sim bigger, attack NPC oases (or any other oases really), gain other simming people, gain VP and tributes faster than anybody else, win game. It's obvious where the focus of the game lies. The bigger kings (that happened to have a good start or organised in a way that let's them have a better start) have so many more free resources because of the tributes that they're put further ahead into the top lists than they should be.


    So let's change that simming and NPC-fighting focus into a focus on war, so Travian turns into the wargame that it's really supposed to be:


    - Make influence (and perhaps VP) dependant not just on simming, but also on correct troop usage.
    - So, make it dynamic so that it grows and shrinks with troop counts, battles between kingdoms, not just on taking oases(oases should not be the focus of this game at all)
    - This means it's harder for kings to get as many tributes as they can right now, since they can't grow their area as fast anymore just by taking oases. Which also means less tributes -> less resources.


    I actually think this is more important than the starting topic of this thread. There does need to be a solution to what you said, some other way of producing treasures. Perhaps that can be linked to the above idea somehow.



    There was a lot of other stuff but let's not derail this thread too much. I'll post the new thread when I get the old one back (if that's possible, I'll ask somebody) :)

  • How much crop are you getting from tributes then? I just sold some for 66/treasure.


    I like the idea of fighting affecting influence. Maybe you should get influence based on troops you killed defending your governors and attacking other kings or WW? Probably not troop numbers though, because then people will not fight, they will just sim troops, and keep them safe

  • 2466 4867 2401 2368 from the hideout itself.
    800‬‬ 1050‬‬ 800‬‬ 2183‬‬ is what I get for one treasure. I just sold 5, so over 10k crop, all this from one hideout. The second one will spawn soon and will no doubt give me something similar, probably slightly more. So 20k+ crop, which increases every day. Which means that just on free resources I could support an army of 833+ troops, for free. That's a reasonably large share of any hammer on the server right now (the biggest ones being 6k+ right now). And I'm not a part of a huge kingdom.

  • Lucky, mine last hideout was about 1k each, and then the treasure got me about 300, 300, 400, 66


    So there must be some randomness to it, or it must take your production into account