Discussion of general advantages of gold use

  • Uh. I wanted to imply/say that either instant delivery or instant build or both should be removed from the game since having both makes fighting **** near impossible against a heavy gold user (the grand majority of the players I normally fight against). I've mentioned the possibility of settling a vilage in enemy territory and golding it up with instant merchant and instant build within a couple of minutes before. But even when fighting normally, it's sooo difficult to do any real damage to an average heavy gold user. Any time an important village gets cata'd they just use some gold and it's back up. How is that not pay-to-win, how is that fair in any way?

  • I have to go back to something I have said in other threads: Of course gold use gives a player advantages. Otherwise they wouldn't buy gold and Travian would not be here for any of us to play. Remove the advantages, and who would buy gold?


    Heavy gold users are going to continue to buy a lot of gold and spend it as they wish as long as it does give advantages. Using the example of golding up a village being rebuilt after heavy damage, yes, that is an advantage and one I never hesitate to use. It costs a good bit of gold, but it gets the job done. If it did not get the job done, I would not spend that gold. Using NPC and,in Kingdoms, instant delivery to bring a hammer village back from crop lock and get the hammer back in it costs a good bit of gold, but a heavy gold user is going to do it if needed, no matter whether the gold costs go up or not.


    However, those who are not heavy gold users will only use those advantages as long as the gold costs fall within their own budgets. If Gold costs go up too far, this group of gold users will not spend that gold, and therefore will not buy as much as they would otherwise. I am guessing that it is this group from which the majority of your revenue from the game comes.


    Those who buy no gold will barely be affected by increases in gold costs, although those who buy a bit here and there will be.


    I can understand TG wanting to test the limits in a beta, however unless I am badly mistaken those limits have already been tested. I don't have access to your sales records, but I would venture to guess gold sales were adversely affected by the increase the first time you tried it - although it may be that the increase was reversed before you had adequate data. I will predict that you will see a large decrease in gold sales if you continue with the price increase on UK1.


    I realize that players who cannot or do not buy gold feel strongly that the game should be "balanced" in such a way that it is as fair for them as it is for gold users. Unfortunately, TG is a business which depends on revenue from us o stay in business and provide the games for us to play online. Yes, it is good to have as many people playing a server as possible, whether they buy gold or not, but reality is reality. Business is business. You need to consider the bottom line, your monthly or quarterly revenue. Price yourself out of the market, and that revenue will dry up.

  • Daniel, please: Nobody is saying to remove all advantages or all gold. Why are you arguing against things nobody is saying? But this particular advantage is completely broken and there is no need to have it in. Keep insta-build in for all I care, just remove the combination of instant merchant and instant build. If you're fighting somebody, catapult a village down from 1k to 300 pop only to see it back at 1k pop in the same minute after the attacks...That's just b u l l s h i t and will cause people to leave the game when they encounter it. (Also, there is no crop lock anymore.) Just remove instant merchant and all is fine. You can still play around the need for merchants. But not when they deliver resources instantaneously.


    Furthermore, I don't believe you've understood a point I made somewhere earlier, about how free players are in principle the ones that support the game. In any free to play game, it's first and foremost the free users that need to be able to play the game long enough to find it fun to play, to then accept to use a little money to make it easier. If you don't let them have fun without paying first, your playerbase declines in a game like this. Seems obvious enough to me. Before anyone turns into a gold player they need to be a free player first. By making the gold costs go up, you ensure that less people use gold all the time, which in turn ensures that free players in a pay to win game aren't disappointed and leave the game. You want this game to have more players? Increase the gold costs which balances the game more which turns less players away and gives you more gold players in the long run. Make advantages too strong and everybody who isn't a whale will leave the game.

  • Ammanurt , I completely disagree with you. Gold usage is an advantage, sure, but it is no guarrantee to win the server, or even finishing it. I have used the insta-merchant a little, and the merchants still need to travel back home before they can run again. It's just a timesaver, just like insta-build and npc is. It's even more extreme since you typically save less than an hour, which compared to insta-building or npc'ing is next to nothing. But these features are a part of the game, and have been since gold was introduced (afaik).


    It might be an idea with alternative servers instead. Make a server that is subscription based, making it pay-to-play, and make the gold free in a limited amount, just like on the test server. Everyone will be on the same terms, but you have the freedom to choose how to spend this limited resource. I doubt a server would be introduced with a cap on gold usage, as this is the primary source of income. It would simply be a bad business decision.

    50 Calibre;10201 wrote:

    ...
    To those in 300 who have thrown your armies at us in true fashion, it has been a great show. Yes joeymoey your attacks on my cap were nice and it looks as though you do not fit in the same pattern I speak about above so kudos to you. I will remember how you support the other one who is not as knowing and allowing it to continue makes you just as guilty as if you were doing it to. I know that you also know, so do something instead of just allowing it.
    ...

  • Who said anything about winning the server? I just meant pay-to-win in a more general fashion, such as winning against another player by paying instead of playing, which this is. And winning against somebody who uses infinitely much gold to instant merchant + instabuild is literally impossible as any damage you do to them just gets repaired instantly. This isn't just a time-saver, you just happen to have only used it/seen it used for no other reason than to save time. It can potentially be used to almost indefinitely prolong your account on any server, so yes it can allow you to survive a server which you should've been destroyed on. I've seen it used this way by more than one player already which has lead me to believe that any gold whale would do the same whenever needed. Which means all gold whales are nearly undefeatable if they just use instant build and instant merchants. Like I said: It's not the instant merchant itself I object against. It's the combination of instant merchant + instant build combination that's so aggravating. One of them needs to go.


    You don't need a lot of merchants just to keep a low pop important village (think a high hammer village or something that's been damaged with the idea of 0-popping it) from being destroyed and especially if you have lots of villages/lots of people willing to donate resources (in a meta or any alliance this is really a given..) and some villages at least are nearby you will always have plenty resources and merchants. Catapult will always travel longer than the merchants need to travel back. In order to deal with the 'tactic' you'd need an insane amount of catapults all timed in the same few seconds, none of which can be taken out by timed defense or the attack will still fail, having dealt no damage at a huge risk. Combine this with the lower amount of waves per second restrictions and you basically need the firepower of an entire alliance just to destroy a single important village. And the execution better be perfect.


    The merchant travel-back time isn't an issue, definitely not a big enough one. Regarding typically saving less than an hour..It can save you a village. Or several villages, several times. Good luck expressing that in just time. If you manage to, the amount of time saved by the combination of instant merchant + instant build saves you quite a lot more than an hour.


    It's pay-to-win, it's broken and it's too unfair.

  • You don't need a lot of merchants just to keep a low pop important village (think a high hammer village or something that's been damaged with the idea of 0-popping it) from being destroyed and especially if you have lots of villages/lots of people willing to donate resources (in a meta or any alliance this is really a given..) and some villages at least are nearby you will always have plenty resources and merchants. Catapult will always travel longer than the merchants need to travel back. In order to deal with the 'tactic' you'd need an insane amount of catapults all timed in the same few seconds, none of which can be taken out by timed defense or the attack will still fail, having dealt no damage at a huge risk. Combine this with the lower amount of waves per second restrictions and you basically need the firepower of an entire alliance just to destroy a single important village. And the execution better be perfect.


    This is simply wrong, it takes exactly 20 waves to remove a village, this can be done with 2-3 players coordinating. Far from an entire alliance, at least midserver. And if executed properly, you need less than 1500 catas total. If they land more or less on top of each other, it will be impossible to rebuild between waves. A little coordination completely negates this advantage, at least in your given example. I have a bigger problem with the chicken boots, it seems flawed to me that it's impossible to catch that bastard.


    This game has always been p2w, and most players have embraced it, since no one forces you to spend more than you want to. I think most of the casual gold users will delete if proper catted since nothing prevents it from happening again tomorrow, and gold is a finite resource after all. I could be classified as a heavy gold user, though my consumption was stable at around 300g / week back in T3, varying only slightly in the beginning and if catted. I think half of this went directly into instabuilding new villages every 6 days or so, the rest was bonuses/plus and npc into hammer and capital croplands. I might throw another 600 gold or so after a catted account, but I would not like it, and I would not do it twice in a week. Every gold user has a breaking point, you just have to find it. It can be too much gold spent, if they lose a mighty hammer, and some can't find the joy in rebuilding.

    50 Calibre;10201 wrote:

    ...
    To those in 300 who have thrown your armies at us in true fashion, it has been a great show. Yes joeymoey your attacks on my cap were nice and it looks as though you do not fit in the same pattern I speak about above so kudos to you. I will remember how you support the other one who is not as knowing and allowing it to continue makes you just as guilty as if you were doing it to. I know that you also know, so do something instead of just allowing it.
    ...

  • 20 waves from 3 players over the course of a couple of seconds. Most of which will not be timed perfectly due to restrictions. How totally inconspicuous :). Any defense leader would see the threat no matter how good you fake. Any good player that sees something like this on their important village would try to time defense. If a single attack misses, isn't sent, is timed in between and gets taken out, the massive risk you took as an attacker is null and void and the village is instantly rebuilt, far before the catapults have even returned to their hammer village. It has to go absolutely perfectly although the chances of succeeding against a good opponent are low. But really this isn't even important. The point was that after taking such as huge risk and - if somewhat succesfull - dealing a lot of damage, it simply shouldn't be possible to instantly repair your village like this!


    Offtopic, but: Even if you do succeed, how many low-odds high risk attempts do you need to do before any equally sized group of heavy gold user- opponents is actually taken out? I don't think anybody in TK currently knows. There haven't been many wars between equal opponents.


    Don't get me started on the chicken boots, another something I'd see gone from the game (about equally unlikely that it will ever happen).



    I could be classified as a heavy gold user, though my consumption was stable at around 300g / week back in T3, varying only slightly in the beginning and if catted. I think half of this went directly into instabuilding new villages every 6 days or so, the rest was bonuses/plus and npc into hammer and capital croplands. I might throw another 600 gold or so after a catted account, but I would not like it, and I would not do it twice in a week. Every gold user has a breaking point, you just have to find it. It can be too much gold spent, if they lose a mighty hammer, and some can't find the joy in rebuilding.


    300g a week is already an insane amount, holy crap. Yup, you're a whale :D And you're using this to instabuild new villages every few days or so...Right. Do you ever bother to actually play the game or do you pay somebody to do that for you, too? :/


    "Every gold user has a breaking point" yes, and nobody who has a lower breaking point can break it, most of the time.


    Also this game has not always been pay to win. Once upon a time there was no gold, only plus...I need an old man to tell this tale honestly, where's Daniel?

  • Dude, it's only a risk if you don't fake properly or target a high-profile village. And the new restrictions are actually an advantage, since you know exactly when a wave will hit the following second. Don't be too cheap to use middlesweeps, that's how you protect your catapults, and now you don't even need cata-escorts in the same-second waves. My hammer actually got stronger with these per-second restrictions since fewer troops are needed as escort.


    Maybe that's the problem, people have become too cheap or too lazy to fake properly. And then it's fully deserved if they lose their hammers.

    50 Calibre;10201 wrote:

    ...
    To those in 300 who have thrown your armies at us in true fashion, it has been a great show. Yes joeymoey your attacks on my cap were nice and it looks as though you do not fit in the same pattern I speak about above so kudos to you. I will remember how you support the other one who is not as knowing and allowing it to continue makes you just as guilty as if you were doing it to. I know that you also know, so do something instead of just allowing it.
    ...

  • Only a risk if not faking properly:


    1. New restrictions are, or can be, an advantage for people with large hammers only. Smaller hammers can't use middlesweeps unless at a big risk since their first impact will be weakened so much. Which means heavy gold users are at an advantage since - especially if you instant build entire villages (I mean, seriously?) - they'll be far ahead and have bigger hammers.
    2. Faking properly is now VERY expensive unless you do indeed have a big hammer/are far ahead/are a gold whale.
    3. Oh it's only a risk if you target a high-profile village.. which happens all the time in wars. What you said was half-true but even if it was fully true - this doesn't actually devaluate my point in any way. It still shouldn't be possible to instant-merchant+instant-build = instant-repair your village like that, even if it's a high-profile high-risk village.


    So for anybody who isn't a gold whale it's always(!) a huge risk, low probability of success kind of thing. Not just strategically, in the sense that choosing a highly worthwhile target can strategically be a huge risk no matter the gold capabilities involved, but it's a even higher risk since the probability of success are low even if the target doesn't DO anything except use gold to repair. Especially fighting a gold whale, the chances of doing lasting damage are low for the earlier mentioned reasons...So much so that I think instant merchants should be deleted from the game.


    I don't think being "too cheap or too lazy" has anything to do with this particular issue.

  • I don't think being "too cheap or too lazy" has anything to do with this particular issue.


    That has everything to do with it. If you know the target would instarepair the village, you alter your approach. Just like with everything else. And gold users are just as restricted by resources as everyone else, so you don't just rebuild a hammer village like that. I think you're being a bit dramatic about this.

    50 Calibre;10201 wrote:

    ...
    To those in 300 who have thrown your armies at us in true fashion, it has been a great show. Yes joeymoey your attacks on my cap were nice and it looks as though you do not fit in the same pattern I speak about above so kudos to you. I will remember how you support the other one who is not as knowing and allowing it to continue makes you just as guilty as if you were doing it to. I know that you also know, so do something instead of just allowing it.
    ...

  • Versions of the same discussion have been going on since the alpha. Amm, you and I have never seen eye to eye on it, and I doubt that will change. However, on the first TEST (Fis), I destroyed an active city with a 20 wave attack while faking at least two more with 20 41 troop/wave fakes. I posted it in the forum just afterward. That kind of attack should always be a team effort, but I was a governor and there was very little in the way of teamwork to be found. 5 players, each sending 4 waves, could have accomplished the same thing if closely coordinated but I did it alone and within a few seconds. There may have been time to rebuild a couple buildings if the player had been fast enough, but the fakes did the job. I truly don't believe anything other than sheer luck in choosing the right city to defend could have altered the outcome no matter how much gold he used. That was done as a test.


    I also chiefed a couple cities in one swoop - another task which should have been a team effort, but which I accomplished by sending a total of 10 chiefs (while running some TH parties) while ram faking several other cities at the same time. Yes, it was late in the server, but if a coordinated team op had been used instead of a single player's troops and chiefs, it could have been done much earlier. The ram fakes worked partly because of differences in Tournament Squares, and partly because all attacks were timed by me to land within seconds. The target player had no time to rebuild a residence, because they cannot be insta-built. Also a test. In fact I believe it was you who had said it could not be done and prompted me to try.


    The required number of troops per fake was reduced while we were still in alpha, so even though they are still more costly than in T4, fakes cost only twice as much. The are not as prohibitively expensive as you seem to believe, and each fake still costs only one cat.


    Rebuilding a village is not as easy as you seem to think either, for a number of reasons - including resources (there is only so much you can do with 800 each resource and 800 crop when storage has been destroyed, and even with instant delivery, merchants have to travel home) - so gold use, no matter how heavy, is no bar to destroying a city or village. If there is any concern over this, a team can send an extra 4 waves to each target. I will grant that coordinating the landing times will be more critical than ever before.


    It is going to be teamwork which gets such things done in TK. Close teamwork and skillful coordination. But they can be done, and will not be a great deal more difficult for a team than they were in earlier versions.


    I don't know that I could find any advantages to the new conditions, but they are the same for everyone. The advantage will belong to the teams who bring back the old Travian team spirit and work closely together as a team - but hasn't that always been the case?

  • I'm not saying it's impossible to do Dan, especially for gold whales such as you ;) . Nobody needs to explain to me the importance of fakes.


    To quote myself: "The point was that after taking such as huge risk and - if somewhat succesfull - dealing a lot of damage, it simply shouldn't be possible to instantly repair your village like this!". Even if the village can't be repaired instantly because there aren't enough resources/merchants available (which makes no sense to me, any alliance would send resources if needed which the victim could forward pretty quickly and if the victim has enough villages nearby the hammer village which is likely then the merchant travel time is completely irrelevant too, but let's assume it for the sake of argument), in many cases it could at least be saved for the time being and rebuilt soon afterwards. So at any point in the server before late-midgame, it's improbable if not nearly impossible for non-gold whales to do any real damage to an important village of a gold whale without using a huge amount of players and/or meeting no resistance. Can we at least agree on that?


    @Joey: Even if you know your opponent will use gold, how exactly would you alter your approach? I don't think anything can be altered. It appears to me there's only one way now to shoot down a village and that's with several people with big hammers (or risk having no middle sweeps) and looots of catapults. Unless they don't fight back. What if you don't want to be in a meta and are in a smaller alliance which is constantly fighting and therefore has no big hammers? Whittling down a village slowly obviously won't work anymore. Croplocks don't exist anymore, so basically fighting slowly in any way won't work well anymore. In order to chief a city you need 10 chiefs or more. You can only potentially chief less important villages. So what approach would you use exactly when large hammers, lots of chiefs and lots of catapults aren't available yet - and possibly won't be for the entire server?

  • @Joey: Even if you know your opponent will use gold, how exactly would you alter your approach? I don't think anything can be altered. It appears to me there's only one way now to shoot down a village and that's with several people with big hammers (or risk having no middle sweeps) and looots of catapults. Unless they don't fight back. What if you don't want to be in a meta and are in a smaller alliance which is constantly fighting and therefore has no big hammers? Whittling down a village slowly obviously won't work anymore. Croplocks don't exist anymore, so basically fighting slowly in any way won't work well anymore. In order to chief a city you need 10 chiefs or more. You can only potentially chief less important villages. So what approach would you use exactly when large hammers, lots of chiefs and lots of catapults aren't available yet - and possibly won't be for the entire server?


    Well, in your example I don't see the relevance. You are not in a position to cat away anything if you don't have proper hammers or enough catas. To repeat myself, you should not expect to completely remove any village if you don't have the resources to do so, and it doesn't matter if the target is a gold user or not. And any alliance can save a village from complete destruction if the attacks lack timing, since lvl1 resource fields are cheap and next to instantly built even without gold.


    But to answer your question, I would wear down such a player for a while, destroying production, MB, MP, WH and GR in his other villages while massively faking the hammer village. At some point you can get through to the hammer village without sacrificing too many hammers, and at that time the entire account will be broken. This approach don't even require an entire meta to do it, a few players can coordinate it with ease. This used to be the dominant strategy back in T3, but for some reason it has been forgotten, and this generation of players only seems to focus on the high-profile targets. As Daniel says, fakes are key, and more players participating makes it cheaper for the individual players and increases damage done per attack.

    50 Calibre;10201 wrote:

    ...
    To those in 300 who have thrown your armies at us in true fashion, it has been a great show. Yes joeymoey your attacks on my cap were nice and it looks as though you do not fit in the same pattern I speak about above so kudos to you. I will remember how you support the other one who is not as knowing and allowing it to continue makes you just as guilty as if you were doing it to. I know that you also know, so do something instead of just allowing it.
    ...

  • Ah. But I thought you said fakes were important. I use fakes and inferred knowledge of opponents to lure away defense and attack where the defense isn't so that my tiny hammers with limited catapults can do damage. But even if I do that succesfully in this version, unless I have 1k+ catapults at my disposal I wouldn't be able to do any damage, or at least I'd need to get lucky with my opponents in that they don't always time in between everywhere. In older versions, I could defeat enemies even though my hammers were small and I didn't have more than maybe 300-500 catapults per hammer. You didn't necessarily need zero-popping capabilities in order to defeat anyone. You don't always have to attack somebody's capital or offense village to destroy them. In TK, the options in attacking feel so limited that unless you're a gold whale and are ahead of your opponent, both as a player and as an alliance - it basically means you need to be in a big alliance if not a meta - , you can't really do the tactics you're mentioning now. It will take too long. Faking will cost you, as a smaller alliance, too much in such an extended tactic. You will lose many catapults because a good opponent will be timing in between attacks in every village. And at best, if you keep attacking the same player without alternating your targeted players - you have to alternate in order to keep hammers and catapults alive, but you can't since he'll just repair all damage using gold - , you'll have destroyed one player at the cost of all your firepower.


    Anyway, maybe you're right. Maybe I am overreacting and it isn't all as bad as I make it out to be. Once Colony starts next on a server, I'll be playing seriously and will be sure to find out.

  • Hello Everyone,


    I normally stay out of these discussions, but in this case I want to inject that teamwork will overcome all of Ammanurt's objections here. A small team of five to six players - whether alliance, kingdom or secret society, can accomplish a great deal. Some players will need to relearn, others will need to learn (which means they will need to be taught) to send troops according to when they will land on target. It has never been same second sending of troops which mattered, but same second arrival. Using an example from earlier in this thread, if the objective is to destroy a large city, five players each sending four waves (or, if there is a concern that some rebuilding make take place in the midst of the attack, six players each sending four) with carefully chosen targets assigned to each player and all waves landing within a few seconds of each other`will erase a city from the map. Those players would also have to fake a number of equally valuable target cities as well, and to time those fake attacks to land at the same time as the attacks on the target city.


    As to the cost of sending fakes, let's examine it. Thirty-nine clubs + one catapult per fake x four fakes x four fake targets = six hundred, twenty-four clubs and sixteen catapults. While true that that is more costly than in T4, how long would it actually take to train them and how much in resources would it actually cost?


    The objections I have seen expressed seem mostly to apply to the difficulty a single player would have attacking another. Travian once encouraged players to work closely together, and as I see it, TK is once again doing the same. It will require an adjustment in thinking, but I feel it will be a rewarding experience for those players who make the adjustment.


    Best regards


    Dan

  • "teamwork will overcome all of Ammanurt's objections here"


    Yes. Potentially it would, it's why I haven't quit the game yet as I'm still to attempt playing in a good pre-made alliance. Except who are you going to cooperate with if you don't have a premade alliance? Most active people are gone from the game, TG has made sure of that, and are unlikely to come back. Try cooperating with casual players and you'll see it won't work in most cases.


    It isn't fair to say the players of a game are at fault when it's the changes in the game that caused these type of players to be the ones that play the game. You say the players need to make an adjustment, but why would new players do so when there aren't any incentives in the game for them to do it? And the old players can't adjust because they're mostly gone. Even if they weren't - they're the ones who are supposed to be used to teamwork. They're not the ones that need changing :)


    More importantly though: You can't turn ANY playerbase into ANY OTHER playerbase without changing a game. You can't turn the playerbase of league of legends, starcraft 2 from fully hardcore into a fully casual one without changing the game. Unless you can tell me how that would randomly happen? You can't turn Travian's playerbase from a mostly casual one into the mix of players it used to have without changing the game. And that's not the player's fault, nor can they change it themselves.


    Let me paint (the short, relevant version of) a picture and maybe you'll see where I'm coming from regarding the instant-merchant + instant-build option in the game:


    Me, the kingdom I was in and some other people had a tiny (non-premade) alliance. Most were almost inactive, non-communicative and without troops, or if they had troops they were defensive. Then, a king who was way bigger than mine planted his 4th or 5th village into our kingdom. At the time, me and my allies had reasonable hammers (for accounts with 3 or 4 villages) with some catapults, but nowhere near enough cats to take him out instantly. So we waited, tried to get people engaged and let them start building catapults. It worked for 1 person. By the time the village reached ~400 pop - within 2 days, the king was an extreme gold whale - we decided we needed to hit soon, even though there weren't enough catapults available to one-shot the village. Obvious problems: The village was within 2 hours catapult distance, so restrictions applied. Attacking (or faking, really) anything else was out of the question: They had a meta behind them with plenty defense to defend each and every wave of fakes at the same time - all the king's other villages were already defended by default anyway, even without incoming attacks - , and we couldn't spare neither the catapults or the clubs (you would be surprised how expensive it is to fake away 720 clubs when you only have 2k or 3k of them...Especially over more than one session of attacks on the same day!). So we simply hit the village point blank a few times. There wasn't any defense there - the king hadn't expected any attacks, so we ended up putting the village back to maybe 140 pop. Before our catapults had been sent for the next round of attacks, the village had already been repaired to it's original state.


    Tell me what could've been done in this scenario. Obviously waiting longer isn't an option, you'll have an enemy CITY (at 500 pop, we were expecting it to become one) with a waterditch as a forward base that was already producing clubs to farm with and would have had catapults within the week. Chiefing isn't an option. Nobody had any yet. Croplocking isn't an option since it doesn't exist anymore. Attacking regularly with catapults was the only option, but in reality that wasn't really an option either. The only option was to keel over and surrender, become his governors, or delete. So I chose deletion instead of becoming part of a meta, getting bored and then deleting.


    This made me decide never to try and play without a premade alliance again. It also caused me to vehemently hate the ******** that is instant merchant + instant build. Although I'll grant that com2 was special (in how broken tributes were), and this particular kind of überwhale is also rare, that doesn't mean the possibility of instant-merchant + instant-build should be in the game. It should be removed.

  • For one thing, as I said before, this game has a long way to go before it settles into its final form (as has the player base). As far as changing the game, it is already a different game, and one in which it is apparent that people will have to work together to really be successful. Obviously, the majority of those playing it now have not yet fully realized that. My solo attacks in the Fis were not all successful, but that any were successful showed me how much easier it would be to find success if playing as a team with others. You plan to play a server with a team which will work together and I believe you will see my point more clearly then.


    I didn't play T4 much, but I played with a team. We attacked together and we had team defense. Our ops were well planned and well timed. When one of us suffered major damage, the rest of us chipped in with resources (at times too many at once, lol), most often without leadership or the player even asking. In such a situation, if using gold with and insta build and insta merchant, it would have been much faster after getting the warehouse and granary back up, however it would not have been possible to rebuild instantly. In the last T4 server I played, the one my dual and I were talked into taking over an account on(it was a deffer account in bad shape when we took it), we turned the account around and made an offensive account with it but never had much of a hammer - however, we built a few hundred cats, rams, and troops I would call a mini hammer. With it, working with a team of 6 in our BG, we either destroyed or chiefed (or both, which is fun) 35-40 villages in the last three months or so of the server. Our successful (they weren't all successful) attacks, whether zeroes or chiefings, were all one shot deals with plenty of fakes going out and everything timed to land as close as possible to the same time. Yes, it is hard to get several people to have attacks land at the same time, but good planning and practice gets you there. I see no reason to believe TK cannot be played the same way, and I see no reason to think one could routinely prevent a village from being "poofed" solely because of insta delivery and insta build. While I do agree that taking crop lock almost completely out of the picture was a mistake, that was pretty much the case already in T4.


    T4 players will indeed have to learn the techniques we used in earlier versions for a team to be a complete success in TK. Much of what we once considered basic was lost in T4 as most true veterans quit the game and more and more players came into it to play for themselves and their own stats. One conversation I had with a fellow king went something like this:


    Him: Can you help? I have 5 waves coming in.
    Me: What time do they land?
    Him: In three hours from now.
    Me: At what time?
    Him: about 8:00
    Me: Exactly what time does each wave land?
    Him: 4 at 8:25, and one at 10:15
    Me: Okay, for the first four, give me the seconds Like 8:25:00
    Him: No, 1 at 8:25:05, 1 at 8:25:06, and two at 8:25:09. Is that what you mean? What about the other one?
    Me: Never mind it right now. Did you copy the defense call template I sent out?
    Him: It's in the chat someplace.
    Me Okay never mind for now, can you cut the second wave?
    Him: Huh?
    Me: Can you split the second wave?
    Him: What do you mean?
    Me: Did you call it insert?
    Him: Not sure what you mean.
    Me: Can you send defense troops from another village timed to land at exactly 8:25:05?
    Him: I have 2500 phalanx in one village I could send to defend, but won't he kill them all?
    Me: he might, but his clear will be the first wave and if your troops land at the exact second then they will not fight the clear but will fight the last three waves.
    Him: Are you sure?
    Me: Yes. I will get some druids there to cut also.
    Him: Okay, thanks. How about the last wave at 10:15?
    Me: Is it an obvious fake?
    Him: I don't know.
    Me: Go to your RP and look at incomings, find it and tell me if it shows any question marks under the troops.
    Him: Yes, a question mark under legionaires and another under fire catapults.
    Me: Okay, it is a fake then, and not a good one. Don't worry about that one.
    Him: Okay, the other four have two question marks too.
    Me: Then they are all fakes. Didn't you tell me you are a veteran?
    Him: Yes, I've been playing about four years.
    Me: Good grief. Okay, they are faking you. Send my druids back when they get there and we need to talk tomorrow.
    Him: About what?
    Me: About the basics of the game.
    Him: I know how to play, I was in the top ten in the last two servers I played.
    Me: I believe it, but there are a few things you need to know, so bear with me.
    Him: Okay, I'll hear you out.


    (To that fellow king: This is just about how that conversation went. After I got over it, I got a good laugh from it, as I am sure you are getting now. I thank you for hearing me out the next day, and for learning some of what Travian is all about;) )


    I will grant that that was an extreme case, but many players lack the basics, and it is on those of us who can to teach them. That player considered himself a veteran, and yet had never really participated with the alliances he had belonged to. He had been a top ten simmer, but couldn't tell you how to send same second waves timed to land the second he wanted - even the importance of seconds - how to cut waves, how to spot even an obvious fake, or much else - except how to build population and train troops. Now he knows those things and (I hope) understands how important they are. Those basics are going to be even more important in TK, and no matter how much gold one uses, they will determine success or failure in this game - not insta build and insta delivery.