Put back the global instant finish

  • Hello,

    I didn't notice when the update was done but from now on starting from COM6, there isn't the possibility to do the global instant finish from the overview tab.
    This means that while before with 3 gold you could instant finish:
    -2 buildings
    -2 smithy upgrades
    -1 research in academy

    now you need 13 gold to do all of them, it's insane. I really hope you put back the global instant finish, this is way too much and there is absolutely no discount with respect to before.

  • Mayo,

    There were pretty explicit that the global finish would only be available for those servers started before the patch. Any new servers would no longer have it.

  • You really thought this building queue thing was because people "didn't get" old one ? :D All major changes here are because of making game more expensive, which makes less and less people play ;)

  • Here we talk about gold future that went more expensive by 300+% with a change no one needed, so if you comment, at least make the comment in the way it'll make sense, but on other hand you're right i used to use gold to use this futures before, now i don't use them anymore, i mean i don't buy gold at all anymore ;)

  • I don't know why I am bothering to comment on this subject again, but I do have a few minutes and a full cup of coffee, so here goes:

    I have defended TG's need to sell gold and make a profit. I have pointed out that without adequate revenue, TG could not keep the game going for us to play. However, as in any business, you can quickly price yourself out of the market. The seemingly ever increasing gold cost of premium features in this game has already driven many former heavy spenders from the game altogether, and caused others to play with less gold than before. Simply put, higher prices mean fewer sales and fewer customers. Lower prices, of course, mean increased sales and more customers.

    When the new build queue was introduced, I took care to use the free final 5 minutes, used the 1 gold finish now and ran the clock down below 2 hours on higher levels to use it. I also used the finish all now when I had long researches as well as buildings without regard to building levels. I spent quite a while testing the feature, and found that I could spend less gold in the long run (I was a heavy gold user, so I usually spent freely). Although doing so meant taking a bit longer to develop the account, I felt it well worth the effort at the time. We did have the option of finish all now for 3 gold at the time. Removing that option was a mistake. If TG just had to do so, increasing the cost to 5 gold would have been a better option than removing it.

    I consider some of the negative comments in reference to TG raising gold costs to be at least somewhat unfair, as I have said before. However, reality doesn't mean nearly as much as perception - look at Donald Trump, for example, or for that matter at both he and Hillary Clinton (I will not participate in political discussion here, just using the candidates to demonstrate my point). The perception is that TG is squeezing the players wallets. In the case of the build queue, I have to say that after removing the option to finish all now TG has made that perception appear much more accurate. What is your normal reaction when someone pushes you? Most players are feeling pushed.

    If you want to raise the cost to 5 gold, then at least run an open server with that option to test the result, but put it back. TG, you are losing, and the more you try to replace lost players with higher gold costs, the more players you are going to lose.

  • Exactly the thing i was saying few months ago when they introduced this future, you were strongly against my opinion at that time, but glad you realized same thing i was saying months ago ;)

  • I think the largest problem here is that TG conflated two issues. I'm willing to accept TG's comments about the build queue. Making the second build queue slot a free master builder slot was an improvement. The new mechanic of the build queue, with the ability to set an order to start when the previous order finishes, or when res is there, and/or reserve the res for items in the build queue is awesome. I was one of the most vocal advocates of the new build queue.

    The build queue was never the problem - it was the removal of the finish all for 3 gold that was the issue. At least now people are saying it straight out, I remember a lot of crap arguments about the build queue way back when pretending it was an issue (though I'll pay that Ammanurt did have some reservations that were based on a rational argument - I tend to disagree with him on that one, but I'll pay his argument had some validity to it, unlike the rest), when in reality, it was always about the price increase.

    And therein lies the problem - the changes are building a trend towards whales and everyone else. Having some of the functionality at a reasonable price allows moderate gold users to use gold. The new structure for insta finish just tips it towards gold users. It's especially galling if you play as Roman - three build items, two smithy, one research for three gold, now out towards 12 gold instead. It's a quadrupling of the price.

    Now, personally, I don't give a crap, and it's not for the obvious reason that I have a serious gold spending habit. It's just that I never really spent that much on insta finish in the first place. Especially with master build on TK, it's not that necessary. Nor do I think insta finish is that big a game breaker, outside of under attack (the number of times my wall goes from single digits to level 20 with incoming attacks does not bear counting...) For me, the massive advantage of gold is NPC, plus and prod bonus, and insta merchants when playing as king. Those are the things that only money can buy. Sure, you can spend a motza on insta finish, and spend an absolute fortune on the auction, but they don't convey the benefits people think they do (outside of very early game, as in the first two weeks - CP helmet and 100 cages to get bears, crocs and elephants in the first two weeks is a big deal. After that, it's neither here nor there).

    But I will second DH's comment about reasonable price - the first version of master builder was the disastrous first implementation of T3.6 (anyone else remember insta troop recall after they'd hit the target, allowing whales to send twice as many attacks and raids?). The master build cost a certain amount of gold per instance - from memory, 1 gold per order queued in the master build queue, but it may have been two. I never used the master build in that pricing structure - actually, I may have once or twice in an emergency, but it would have been once or twice a server, max. The new pricing structure - a set amount of gold per slot for the entire server - I buy the three slots every server at server start, without fail.

    I do think that TG is starting to fall on the wrong side of the value for money equation in most people's perceptions, and they need to start thinking about better pricing structures that mean people are more likely to use it.

    As another example, I've historically never gone for more than one warehouse or granary in any village other than cap or hammer (in the old days, when hammer had to be separate to cap for no GS/GB in cap). I've found myself now taking it to two of each, level 20, so that I NPC less often. Funnily enough, I didn't do that when NPC went from 3 gold to 4. But I've done it now that NPC has gone to 5. So a 25% increase in the cost means that I've halved the rate of incidence of spending. The economics of the increasing prices don't stack up.

  • Interesting now ... how people changed their stories, remember few month back when they introduced new building queue on test server our debate about same topic, how i compared bars with prices of beer ? One having beer 20$ other 5$ which'll earn more at the end of the day, you were strongly against that and said they must make money :) But glad you noticed same thing, even few months later that high prizes only throw people away, even if you can afford beer for 20$ it's not same if you sit in an empty bar or crowded one ...

  • PoLo,

    DanielHart was the only one that said that this change could result in you using less gold (and if you don't insta a lot, and you're careful about when you do, you can save gold). I can't find the original thread I'm thinking of, where everyone complained the new building queue was a disaster, and I disagreed about the mechanics of the new build queue. But on most of the threads about this, everyone was pretty consistent that they didn't like the price increase. Ammanurt and DH didn't like that the master builder slots allowed you to reserve more resources that were safe from raids. But I can't think of any thread on the new build queue where there was any large scale affirmation of the new prices.

  • I LOVE the new building queue. Now I can just go to sleep and have 8 hours of it. Instead of setting my alarm to queue that main building another level.

    Gold is the problem. Ok 25% resources increase. OK 20% more warehouse space. OK hero items. But that card game? That's just cheating. Get free resources, get better items, get better potions. Come on....

    The test server just finished and it's going to be the only server I will play untill they make a server where everyone pays €10 per month to play equal grounds!

  • iribuya,

    I've mentioned this a fair few times, but... $10 per round? Doesn't work. You have any idea the stupid amounts of money people like me spend on this game? I buy the 90 euro package each month. Sometimes more, sometimes less. And I'm nowhere near the heaviest gold spender. You need to find 50+ players for each one of me. And hundreds for the serious whales. I'm sorry to say this, but casual gaming has changed the economics of these sorts of games badly.

    Actually, the 25% warehouse and prod bonus, along with NPC are the big ticket items. I don't spend as much as some because I really don't bother much with auctions, nor do I bother with the card game once I have the two building slots for my cap. There's been a fair few players that have gone bonkers on com5 over both of those, and they're trailing in my dust for biggest account, because the auction and card game don't really give you that much advantage - oh, I need to mention the tribute system as well here, it certainly has helped. If you want to stop gold advantage, you need to get rid of plus and prod bonus, and NPC. And the game designers have stated multiple times those can't go, the economics of the game are built around them.

  • So we have talked about this since the very start of the change on our team. I dont think we ever posted anything on the forums about it however. This change was an absolute gold grab and we saw right through it. It makes the game much more expensive (I can tell you that for a fact). Its not perception if you are a hardcore player because you will almost never wait for the upper buildings to finish.

    With this in mind I can tell you that because of my experience with this new system, and the amount of money our team spent on last server, I cant see myself playing again and spending any money until this is changed. I simply dont want to spend that much money again so Travian will lose any money I would have spent. More than likely, if I do play I will play test.

    Change it back people.

  • @ vvv

    You might think you are helping the server with this much money and I'm sure they are happy with it. But I think many players Dont buy gold, because they know it's never enough.

    I think the developers should realise that real gamers like a fair game. I dont mind paying for something, but it should be fair.

    If everyone in the server pays €10 / month, and gets 200 gold for that per week ; I'm sure the server will not lose any money and we can all have a nice game. I liked travian in the old days when the 25% increase was all you could get, but now it's turning into a candy crush machine with "spend gold now" everywhere.

    I'm not saying they should make every server like that, but they could run a test and see what happens at least.

  • iribuya,

    One of my long standing traditions that everyone seems to disagree with is that I don't think that the people at TG are completely useless. Now, to give you a little bit of background, my work involves building models. Predictive models, scenario modelling, forecasting models, commercial models - you name it, if you can give me a high level idea of what you want, and you have the necessary data, chances are I can build it.

    So for things like what you're talking about, my position is simply this:

    TG will have more than enough data to develop quite sophisticated commercial scenario models. It's not like the maths around elasticity of demand is exactly secret, and they've had more than enough price changes across multiple domains to establish that. I know I could build the models necessary to establish the financial viability of a registration fee model (whether individual or recurring) versus the current freemium model where you bank on a relatively small proportion of players providing a significant portion of your income. I assume TG have done this modelling, and surmised that it doesn't work economically. It's been a while, but I know the last time I looked at this sort of data elsewhere in the industry it became very obvious just how badly skewed the data was for this sort of model. There aren't actually a lot of players who would pay a modest amount per month - freemium games tend to be one of either two extremes - those who play for free, and don't pay any money, nor would ever pay any money, and the whales - with nothing in between, for all intents and purposes.

    There's a reason why that mobile platform "strategy" game - can't remember the one, but the one with the terrible adds with Kate Upton swanning around in a low cut dress - had an advertising budget that was an order of magnitude bigger than the entire development budget for Borderlands II. (I imagine the latest challenger, with good old Arnie is a similar story).

    Now, personally, I think that TG going down that road is doomed to failure - firstly, because neither TL nor TK are casual games - there can be real consequences to attacks in Travian. Secondly, I think that it's poorly suited to the churn and burn mentality of those sorts of games. So they need to keep the balance between the non or low paying players, and the whales. Lately, I think they've got it wrong. But I assume the reason there's never been a one off registration cost server isn't because TG are pig headed, or scared of changing their business model, I assume they know what they're doing, someone's run the numbers, done the modelling, and that business model is just not as commercially viable.