demolish his residence/wall
Curious to see reports from WST hit on TTT
"Dirty players" - oh how interesting.
What, then, are such shortcuts then? How do we judge others by ourselves?
Pay no attention to these hypocrites, any strategy/tactic that is not against the rules is fair. Some just have trouble adapting their plays and call foul whenever it suits them.
Look the Turkish region they're multiplying like little rabbits. I never saw high density like that . Around 200 players at the end can be +2000 villages . We might see the biggest kingdom in the history
Most of them will be banned/deleted long before that
Looks like BM's dual / treble accounts gonna have a good fight vs. the 60 russians with 2-4 multis each
Will see which strategy will come out on top.
BM's "3 people per 1 account" or russian's "1 person per 3 accounts"
Take def points away from grey village spiking and you would probably see a drop in their usage, a lot of spikers just do it as some form of "stat padding" for easy points
they call it an act of war and using tactics ..... when in reality it's just an easy way to kill small quantites of troops and create some drama.
Bukka#PL you didn't really damage us on com2 though did you? so it wasn't very effective
Strategic#EN it's true raiding does make your account bigger/better sometimes although it's not essential as you spiking/clearing and hitting walls/residences/troops etc will create many losses compared to a player like me who normally doesn't farm and so has more troops alive to help defend the places where they are needed
Take away def points and it's gonna be a lot harder to find who is spiking.
I didn't really do damage to you, cause I didn't spike. I don't have time or care to do it.
And while that op it didn't do much damage alone, just as a single raid doesn't help much, but imagine if it kept happening every day?
1. About your arguments to remove greys all together, I don't particularly agree, most armies on tk can be done with a proper account built decently.
2. I don't really get your point on metas, whether there are greys or not it won't change them.
3. If anything, removing greys will be a loss for governors and a win for king and dukes who don't need to raid/farm to have insane armies.
4. Then again, if you think about it, farming a guy who hasn't grown in the past 5 days, or a guy who has become grey for a day is rather similar.. it just means its harder to spike cause you don't know who is afk for real or not, while farming becomes safer since most people check their targets if done properly.
5. Also, if it is so easy to be top raider, why aren't you up there? It's easy to say it requires no skill and little work, but there is actually a lot of work put into it that is needed in order to be at the top. And even without farming you can build 100k+ armies if you have some good account economy and logistics.
1. Then why is an argument 'they need farms to feed their armies' is being used over and over again? Without widely available income (greys) average army size will go down and will allow those who can farm up and feed big armies will stand out more.
2. Maybe, my reasoning was that since those metas invite everyone, most of their players hold next to no troops and most play simcity. And what happens is that kingdom is not being attacked since there is no incentive to do so - it keeps producing def and can defend those players. If those troops were needed in early/mid game to fight for resources, perhaps those semi/inactive players would be left defenseless.
3. Sure, but I treat kings/dukes and their govs as a single entity - a kingdom, so a divide between gov and king doesn't matter in a scale of a kingdom
4. Yes, but it requires a lot more work to find, scout, and clear them than to look at the map and add to farmlist greys with notifications above them. Besides, if game turns into a fight for resources early/mid then I'd expect that a lot less players would quit due to boredom (like you guys keep saying).
5. I never meant its easy to be top raider, but to get enough res from farmlists to outclass any res production from village. I was playing off when I had a lot of free time and was spending most of it in front of pc, so I didn't count sending farmlists as a work, since i was doing it by the way. But you are right, if you need to go out of your way to send those lists then it requires a lot of work.
A few additional ones:
- If players don't generate resources, if they're offline, nobody would fight about resources, because either one is online or ones warehouses are empty --> nothing to fight for
- Kings/Dukes can't farm --> they invite even more people to ones kingdom to gain even more tributes, nobody in big metas cares about governors
- Deff won't get weaker at all, they usually don't farm and aren't affected by this. Good def accounts weren't weak, if they would use their deff more often. Production speed is key, not current deff amount.
1. It was an exaggeration.
2. Number of people isn't what is limiting their tributes right now anyways, it's treasury area.
3. Of course it would, perhaps not at the same rate as off, but it would anyways as without extra income from greys, they would have to choose between economy and troops.
Yep, exactly. You might be busy for an hour or two once (why crop supplies tho, 1k units -> 10 per hour starve, who cares) and another 5 minutes for recalling all reinforcements, but a farming offaccount is busy 24/7 sending farmlists every few minutes and has to keep their farmlist updated on a daily basis, which takes 30+ minutes per day aswell, depending on map size, used methods, and so on. Like the other guy said, play a farming off account yourself to see how much effort and time one has to invest to farm decently. Clicking farmlists on a high frequent time - which you need to get a decent amount of resources - is more time consuming than one might think. TK farmlists are better than T:L farmlists in that regard, because the time consumed per farmlist click is less, but if you don't have the luxury of having a monitor more than you usually need, clicking farmlists takes maybe 20-30 seconds per village, for 2-3 villages you're at 40-90 seconds every 5 minutes, depends highly on the situation. Maybe a bit less, but it's an unexpectedly high percentage of your time.
Then why do you do it? Why send farmlists if it takes so much work? Cause it generates so much res its mad and it's virtually free. And you want to make it even more available? Currently all greys do is generate resources for people who are online, it takes no skill, just some minor work to maintain those lists. What it also means is that if you want to create a big army then you are forced to send those lists, as you cannot generate enough res to feed them otherwise.
What I propose, is to remove greys all together. How I think it will impact the game:
- Active and experienced players get to fight with other players for resources.
- End game armies will be on average weaker, but so will def due to early/mid game fight for resources.
- Big armies will be harder to create, but will be also much more impactful and impressive, as it will require some heavy teamwork to pull off.
- So called 'meta' kingdoms, whose main strategy is to generate as much treasuries as possible via inviting as many govs as possible will be much more weaker due to having harder time fighting for resources.
In 3 years, the discussion is still at the same point and the developers have never given their input on this topic (correct me if they have).
1. Remove morale from grey farms
2. Make visible name of spiker/defender
3. Make raids on grey villages cancellable in case of spiking on targets >20 squares from farming village (this one might a bit op, but it would make a big difference between people farming manually and the ones using a clicker).
With this it would be balanced between attacker and defender.
PS: Bukka/Flint you might need to try a bit harder to understand what we complain about (not cry, its quite different), maybe you should start farming and experience it for yourself.
No, Mayo/Pob, I understand what you complain about, you want to have more free income for those who are online the most. Maybe we should just remove greys and have res production halted when you are offline, would that satisfy you?
Besides, as always you just pasted your opinion on spiking, completely ignorant of discussion.
Because it isn't. Where's the strategy? Where's the tactic? Do you really see yourself as genius strategist, when you spike farms? You don't need any effort, any skill, any strategy, any thinking, not even time or troops to spike, but do a lot of damage to someone who is putting a lot of effort and time into his hammer, if you do so regularily. People complain rightfully about this, because it's imbalanced and overpowered from the defender's point of view - and uncalculateable, volatile and frustrating for the offer's point of view. Imagine I had a button "kill 100 clubs of mine, but kill also 1500 def from that player, thx" and would press it multiple times a day. Same thing (exaggerrated and not 100% analogue, of course, but the principle stays ...)
I said it somewhere else, not sure if earlier here or in another spike cry thread, one should - for the sake of less frustrating gameplay and better balancing - prevent spiking but add a calculateable cost to farming, activity and effort should get one an advantage, but from my own experience that advantage is just ... insane, due to lack of concurrence. Maybe com is different, I play mostly de ...
You mean to say that if I time my troops to arrive at the same time to 40 different greys with crop supplies so they don't starve, and pull them out before enemies can clear it somehow takes less effort than clicking a farmlist?
Can you stop with the arrogance for just a moment?
You're not talking to a bunch of newbies and you are not a god at this game. So stop the arrogance please.
There are 2 scenarios:
1. Enemy farms inactives with farmlist and is thus competition to your farming.
If the enemy farms then there will be a moment where he is not online and a portion of his troops have returned home from farming. That is when you can make some nice kills. You'll never catch the entire hammer, you'll always catch something if the enemy is offline. I'd say it is safe to assume 5% of troops to be home when you attack. 5% is pretty nice to catch, you do this a few times and you'll really halt his farming, forcing him to be online more or depend less on farmlists to ensure his returning troops don't get caught.
Don't try to snipe with walking times longer than 2 hours cause then they have too big of a window to secure their troops.
I'm sorry, I am not a god, I'm at best decent. I never meant to imply otherwise, but if we want to talk about strategy then we can't base our assumptions on enemies making bland mistakes, ex. "Average people don't level their wall, so rams are useless."
About catching farming units at home, I agree, you're gonna find let's assume 5% of their troops but there are 2 scenarios:
1. Enemy is kingdom/friends less (or very weak ones): If he is building off units then he is not gonna have any decent def, therefor it's easier to clear/cata his village and turn him into farm.
2. Enemy is among top5 kingdoms: If your TTs walking times is even an hour (good luck), then you're gonna find just how much def can be amassed during that hour, and since you have no rams, and TTs aren't that strong, I doubt you're gonna have any decent returns on those troops.
If he sent def to random grey villages without cooperating with his teammates from kingdom who farm a lot, he will have problems with them as well. But if he cooperates with other teammates we can speak about the tactic, not "spiking" as such. In the first case it's clear how to proceed. The second is hard to say, maybe just create a thread on the forum and start crying.
And how can you know if it's some random kingdom less guy or coordinated effort when first thing people do when they red farmlist icon is to go to forum and cry how much spikers ruin game for everyone?
On com2 few of our deffers coordinated with our farmers to spike greys around kingdom BM. We lost next to none off/farming units and had great returns on our def, but that doesn't matter cause not even an hour after def landed entire BM kingdom was crying on forum how spiking is a bs and we should be banned for that action.
It's NEVER seen as a valid strategy/tactic.
"I mean that if they are sending lists every 10minutes then how can you hope to catch them with army home?"
Where did you refer to saved troops in your posts? Twisting words =/= having a good argument. You said when someone is sending FL every 10 minutes, you can't catch their off, because it's not at home anyway. And that's just nonsense, like I said. By the way, many players don't save their troops correctly. Many don't save at all (even decent players), many save them in oasis, and so on. Maybe com is different, but when I recall how many troops we killed at home, because nobody saved them ...
Sorry, I just assumed we are talking about a decent players and possible strategy against them. Of course you can hope that someone is leaving 50k clubs at home and that might work some of the times but if your opponent is active enough to send farmlists every 10min and experienced enough to feed such an army then I'd doubt he is gonna leave his rams/cata or army at home. And yes, COM is completely different ballgame than some local servers.
If that were true, just kill the rams and cats and voilà their hammer is useless.
But it isn't. A teuton hammer with 75k clubs won't even come close to having none at home ... don't forget, that there's a 1k outgoing attack limit, ergo max 2k raids on their way. You usually don't have an average of 38 clubs per farm. Also, farming with TK isn't the best way to go (speed low, cost high when spiked), so you can kill at least them. Did you even ever try to kill a hammer at home or are you just assuming stuff without any knowledge and experience?
No, you are right, it's best to leave troops at home whenever you're not at pc. What are you even saying?
When I know that I won't be available for X hours, then I'm sending away whatever I have left. As I assume every decent player.
And I'm talking from perspective of having a hammer, but if you wanna kill the hammer of some inactive then sure, everything works.
Maybe for one man, but for a group it's easy to find him and punish him afterwards. Everyone can screenshot each page of defenders and send attacks to villages with the spike. Every time we find spiker, we punish him right away. This game is about cooperating. It is hilarious how people are sending farmlists 8-16 hours per day in 10-30 min intervals and have a problem find one or two people who are sending def to grey villages. Very impressive.
Sure, if it's a single disgruntled guy with 100 pop then that's easy, what if its one of top players from top kingdom. Are you gonna try to zero his villages? Cause sure as hell his kingdom is gonna stand behind him and it will be VERY costly for you.
Thanks for also bringing that up.
We need to get rid of the ability for govs to hide troops in robber hideouts.
Other than that, you will always be able to find some portion of their troops somewhere.
Yeah Teutons won't be able to snipe the really good players cause their troops take too long and the other player will notice, but that is what TT and EI are for, sniping offense troops.
Teutons have the advantage that they can just raid a lot more than the other tribes cause they just have more units. So yeah, they have higher upkeep but they can out compete the other tribes.
So no, right now spiking is NOT the only way to weaken enemy hammers. That is if you are a decent player though.
I didn't mean hiding troops in robbers. I mean that if they are sending lists every 10minutes then how can you hope to catch them with army home? Even with TTs at best you're gonna find few minutes of troop production and you risk running straight into wall.
And even if you catch them when they are asleep, their army wont be home, only whatever troops was produced and whatever came back from farmlist. And same story, with TTs/EIs you're gonna run into roman wall and then you can forget about seeing your horses again.
It is up to the offense players to then kill the farming army of his competitors.
And how do you want to do that? You're not gonna find an army of any decent player home. Only way to get rid of it is to level entire village/city and if he is in one of the top kingdoms then you're gonna need to sacrifice a whole lot of more troops for a chance to do that. Any way to weaken someone's army right now is through spiking.
Maybe we should remove greys all together? Farming gives so much res it shouldn't be risk free and without greys, if you want that extra income then you have to raid active players.
That way it might turn into war game as it was advertised, and not 'send farmlists for 5 months so your army can compete with those who do'.
It might also solve some issues with big kingdoms, if farming actually takes time and skill then those huge meta kingdoms will lose a lot of power.
It doesnt even have to be that extreme. A 20h attack could become a 4h one (especially around european nighttimes thats a huge difference).
Even if you look at it in a vacuum, that's still 20h attack. Once you settle that village it's 16h for troops to get there and 4h to get from there to the target. And you have few hours to raze it before def arrives.
But I don't think it would turn into that. I think the game would be more strategic/tactical in troop movement. No more static gameplay where troops wait at home for end game, instead are moving around the map much like real troops.
I understand it would change the game drastically, but I for one would welcome that change.
First of all, you just disproved your own point - you said it wouldn't make off weaker and then said it would just then - make up your mind. Secondly, it would make an enourmous difference - there is huge difference between being able to see an attack incoming for 2-3 hours on a treasury and being able to respond and having like 5-10 mins to respond - it cuts the def they could receive massively
I never claimed whether off or def would be weaker. I simply asked for arguments for "it would buff defenders massively".
I understand that you can move your def troops more easily around an area, especially if they come from far away, but same goes for off units so I don't see how one would be 'massively' better than the other.
About reponse time, you're not gonna have hammers hitting your treasury from a village next to them, you're gonna have few hours to respond at very least and your def troops should be close enough that they can respond to the threat, especially with forwarding. You shouldn't let your enemy develop a village next to your treasury.
But balance wise, I think it would buff roman DEF due to having much more maneuverable praetorians and also gaul OFF and ghost hammers in general.
Not sure how it would affect off/def balance.
We didn't say it would make off weaker, just that it would buff defenders massively
Which would make off weaker by relativity.
also your point is an example of why this update would be stupid, there is no need to add troop forwarding.
Why? Why would it be stupid? Cause it's different?
You can already land your def before off hits so forwarding troops won't change that much, but it does change the game from having static def stationed in treasury and waiting for end game into more dynamic movement of troops and region control. Which in my opinion is a great change.